Discussion:
high-speed spindles
(too old to reply)
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2013-04-09 12:49:14 UTC
Permalink
I need to equip my R2E4 with an add-on high-speed spindle for drilling
and milling PCB prototypes.

The little 1.5KW water-cooled spindles from China look attractive. With
one of those, a matching 400Hz inverter, and a little cobbling, it looks
like I can get into service for under $500.

Does anyone have any experience with those, any brand recommendations,
life-expectancy, etc??

Thanks,
Lloyd
PCS
2013-04-09 18:52:27 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 9, 8:49 am, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
I need to equip my R2E4 with an add-on high-speed spindle for drilling
and milling PCB prototypes.
The little 1.5KW water-cooled spindles from China look attractive.  With
one of those, a matching 400Hz inverter, and a little cobbling, it looks
like I can get into service for under $500.
Does anyone have any experience with those, any brand recommendations,
life-expectancy, etc??
Thanks,
Lloyd
G'luck with it.

Probably want to think about adding the cost of a small water chiller
unit also.

--

PaulS
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2013-04-09 19:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by PCS
Probably want to think about adding the cost of a small water chiller
unit also.
I think a 30-gallon shallow metal coolant tank will provide enough cooling!
These motors barely get warm under light loads, according to what I've read
in some user-reviews.

Lloyd
r***@sbcglobal.net
2013-04-09 21:23:48 UTC
Permalink
http://www.cnczone.com/ - lots of info

Randy
d***@kbrx.com
2013-04-09 23:00:54 UTC
Permalink
1.5kw? as in 2 hp? Seems excessive for drilling .020 inch diameter
holes in pcb's. Milling .001 inch copper sheet isn't a major job either.
Maybe 1/4 hp would be adequate, surely 1/2 hp?
If you run across a spindle in that range (30000, 40000, 50000 rpm),
let it be known. I looking for such a beast for milling stencils in 3 mil
& 5 mil brass.

Hul
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
I need to equip my R2E4 with an add-on high-speed spindle for drilling
and milling PCB prototypes.
The little 1.5KW water-cooled spindles from China look attractive. With
one of those, a matching 400Hz inverter, and a little cobbling, it looks
like I can get into service for under $500.
Does anyone have any experience with those, any brand recommendations,
life-expectancy, etc??
Thanks,
Lloyd
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2013-04-09 23:15:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@kbrx.com
1.5kw? as in 2 hp? Seems excessive for drilling .020 inch diameter
holes in pcb's. Milling .001 inch copper sheet isn't a major job either.
Maybe 1/4 hp would be adequate, surely 1/2 hp?
It would be, but with 2HP, I can also do high-speed milling of tougher
materials, and the difference in cost between a 0.5KW spindle and a 1.5KW
version is about $30.

I have not seen one in the 30Krpm range... most metal bearings get weak
in the knees at those speeds, and most inverter drives top out at 400Hz,
which is the rated input for these at 24Krpm.

Lloyd
Ignoramus26995
2013-04-10 00:01:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@kbrx.com
Post by d***@kbrx.com
1.5kw? as in 2 hp? Seems excessive for drilling .020 inch diameter
holes in pcb's. Milling .001 inch copper sheet isn't a major job
either.
Post by d***@kbrx.com
Maybe 1/4 hp would be adequate, surely 1/2 hp?
It would be, but with 2HP, I can also do high-speed milling of tougher
materials, and the difference in cost between a 0.5KW spindle and a 1.5KW
version is about $30.
I have not seen one in the 30Krpm range... most metal bearings get weak
in the knees at those speeds, and most inverter drives top out at 400Hz,
which is the rated input for these at 24Krpm.
What I heard about those spindles is that they are junk. But they may
be cheap enough to just try out.

i
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2013-04-10 01:24:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ignoramus26995
What I heard about those spindles is that they are junk. But they may
be cheap enough to just try out.
I sorta thought that, but after posting the same in the CamBam forum, I
had replies from three other guys who've been running them about 10 hours
a month with not a problem for over three years. Not even bearings...
and two of those guys have the air-cooled units.

FWIW, I'd consider them 'advanced amateurs', and trust their opinions.

Lloyd
PrecisionmachinisT
2013-04-10 03:23:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by Ignoramus26995
What I heard about those spindles is that they are junk. But they may
be cheap enough to just try out.
I sorta thought that, but after posting the same in the CamBam forum, I
had replies from three other guys who've been running them about 10 hours
a month with not a problem for over three years. Not even bearings...
and two of those guys have the air-cooled units.
FWIW, I'd consider them 'advanced amateurs', and trust their opinions.
Lloyd
http://www.nskamericacorp.com/prod_machineTool_planet.aspx
jon_banquer
2013-04-10 03:30:49 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 9, 8:23 pm, "PrecisionmachinisT"
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by Ignoramus26995
What I heard about those spindles is that they are junk. But they may
be cheap enough to just try out.
I sorta thought that, but after posting the same in the CamBam forum, I
had replies from three other guys who've been running them about 10 hours
a month with not a problem for over three years.  Not even bearings...
and two of those guys have the air-cooled units.
FWIW, I'd consider them 'advanced amateurs', and trust their opinions.
Lloyd
http://www.nskamericacorp.com/prod_machineTool_planet.aspx
This is unit I've used.
PrecisionmachinisT
2013-04-10 04:25:31 UTC
Permalink
"jon_banquer" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:21fc4e1f-5e46-49af-b7f6-***@fz1g2000pbb.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 9, 8:23 pm, "PrecisionmachinisT"
Post by jon_banquer
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
http://www.nskamericacorp.com/prod_machineTool_planet.aspx
This is unit I've used.
Ducky has one--uses it to inlay mother of pearl and the like..swears by it..

Personally, I rather to use redhead, setco or parker-majestic.
jon_banquer
2013-04-10 04:27:04 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 9, 9:25 pm, "PrecisionmachinisT"
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
On Apr 9, 8:23 pm, "PrecisionmachinisT"
Post by jon_banquer
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
http://www.nskamericacorp.com/prod_machineTool_planet.aspx
This is unit I've used.
Ducky has one--uses it to inlay mother of pearl and the like..swears by it..
Personally, I rather to use redhead, setco or parker-majestic.
It's a reliable unit but doesn't have much in the way of balls. It's
all I know as I've never used anything else.
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2013-04-10 10:49:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
http://www.nskamericacorp.com/prod_machineTool_planet.aspx
Thanks. That would be MUCH more compact in place on my spindle nose. If
I only used it for PCB drilling, I think it would be ideal.

But I wonder how one would speed regulate such a spindle for actual
milling... any clues? Do they have throttling regulators for those?

LLoyd
PrecisionmachinisT
2013-04-11 00:25:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
http://www.nskamericacorp.com/prod_machineTool_planet.aspx
Thanks. That would be MUCH more compact in place on my spindle nose. If
I only used it for PCB drilling, I think it would be ideal.
But I wonder how one would speed regulate such a spindle for actual
milling... any clues? Do they have throttling regulators for those?
I've always just run that type of things wide open, save for the slight pitch change that occurs when they come under a load.
Gunner Asch
2013-04-13 13:34:59 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 05:49:14 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
http://www.nskamericacorp.com/prod_machineTool_planet.aspx
Thanks. That would be MUCH more compact in place on my spindle nose. If
I only used it for PCB drilling, I think it would be ideal.
But I wonder how one would speed regulate such a spindle for actual
milling... any clues? Do they have throttling regulators for those?
LLoyd
Simple regulator should do the job. Lots of my clients use NSK air
spindles for C axis work on CNC lathes and we simply throttle down the
air pressure if need be.

There are some electric spindles out there..about 1" in diameter that
use a speed controller..but they add about $3k to the basic price

And NSK isnt..isnt cheap.

Gunner
Pete C.
2013-04-10 13:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by Ignoramus26995
What I heard about those spindles is that they are junk. But they may
be cheap enough to just try out.
I sorta thought that, but after posting the same in the CamBam forum, I
had replies from three other guys who've been running them about 10 hours
a month with not a problem for over three years. Not even bearings...
and two of those guys have the air-cooled units.
FWIW, I'd consider them 'advanced amateurs', and trust their opinions.
Lloyd
http://www.nskamericacorp.com/prod_machineTool_planet.aspx
Vey cool, but "relatively low cost" scares me. Any idea what these sell
for and where?
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2013-04-10 14:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete C.
Vey cool, but "relatively low cost" scares me. Any idea what these sell
for and where?
Pete, the more I look at those, the less I think they'd be well suited to
milling where one must control chip loads. Although they spin to
enormous RPMS, they are not speed regulated under loads.

I think they'd do fine for fragile, brittle materials where chip loads
are secondary to just cutting through the stuff (like PM said... mother
of pearl, or fiberglass PCB material), but wouldn't work well at all
cutting aluminum.

They're made specifically for grinding, where speed is important, but
tight regulation of speed not as much.

LLoyd
Jon Elson
2013-04-10 20:36:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete C.
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
http://www.nskamericacorp.com/prod_machineTool_planet.aspx
Vey cool, but "relatively low cost" scares me. Any idea what these sell
for and where?
The 300 l/min should scare you, too! That's a LOT of air! (about
10 cuft / min., or maybe 10 Hp on a single-stage compressor.)

Jon
Ecnerwal
2013-04-10 00:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@kbrx.com
1.5kw? as in 2 hp? Seems excessive for drilling .020 inch diameter
holes in pcb's. Milling .001 inch copper sheet isn't a major job either.
Maybe 1/4 hp would be adequate, surely 1/2 hp?
If you run across a spindle in that range (30000, 40000, 50000 rpm),
let it be known. I looking for such a beast for milling stencils in 3 mil
& 5 mil brass.
Assuming you can stand the noise (one place a "real" spindle beats the
heck out of them) laminate trimmers are a typical 30,000 rpm
small-horsepower unit. Routers if you need a bit more beef. I come at
this myself from the "I have a CNC router and I begin to see why I might
want a 'spindle' to cut the noise down" viewpoint. The deafening roar of
an aircooled universal motor gets old, fast. The sparks off the brushes
would presumably mean Lloyd couldn't use one, though I suppose he might
have machine areas that are not in the "go boom" zone, but if he's
looking at watercooled spindles I'm thinking he wants it quiet,
comparatively, anyway.

Runout may not be the greatest, but the same is probably true of
low-budget chinese spindles. On the laminate trimmers/routers, avoid the
cheap chinese ones or you'll really regret it, IMHO.

Or, if you have large horsepower shop air and don't mind using it, use a
die grinder. Kinda spendy for much long-term use in operational
cost...but you can get 50,000+ rpm out of one without a sweat.

Hmm. Combine the concept of watercooling and turbine air, maybe there's
some market for a water-turbine spindle - power it by dropping the
well-pump of your choice (or the power you need) in a drum of water and
recirculate...LLoyd could use that in the "go-boom" area, and you'd get
those nice non-contact watercooled bearings. Probably imractical due to
no such small water-turbine units being in large-scale production, but
it's a nice thought.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.
Hul Tytus
2013-04-11 00:54:41 UTC
Permalink
rec.crafts.metalworking
Re: high-speed spindles

Harbor Freight's 1/4 inch electric die grinder was tried, first for
drilling some small diameter holes in aluminum blocks and then milling solder
paste stencils in 3 & 5 mil brass sheet. In both cases the results showed
excessive runout, unpredicted by stationary measurements. It is a nice tool
for the intended purpose though. Convient to mount also.
"Grinders" have the advantage of self conforming grinding stones - if the
cutter shows runout, it won't do it for long. The Harbor Freight die grinder
showed little runout on a tool's shank close to the collect but, apparently,
the shank(s) was not pointed exactly down the axis and an inch or two down
that axis, ie at the tip of a drill, the runout was noticebly greater.
Milling the brass sheet brought the same conclusions. The diameter of the
endmill used is .015 inch but the width of a resulting slot was 10 or 11 mil
oversize - .026 inch. Much to big a minimum size for a pcboard stencil with
component pads at .025 between centers - and that's considered big; .020, half
a millimeter, between centers is a common now, and headed even smaller.
Porter Cable's laminate trimmer looks good as does (did) the 1/4 die
gringers, but the collet design shows the primary problem. The shank is held
just inside the screw retained collect cap. The collect itself contacts the
shank for a length of 3/8 in. The shank typically fits into the motor shaft
roughly another 1/2 in. with several thousandths clearance - suitable holding
for router work on wood or with grinding stones ala the 1/4 inch die grinders,
but with tiny tool work in metal it doesn't fit.
Vibration is a possible explanation for some of the lack of accuracy with
the die grinder - both within the grinder itself and the equipment it's
mounted on. I tried Harbor Freight's 1/8 in. air powered die grinder with the
thought of reducing vibration, but the runout/rattle was numerous thousanths -
an air bearing maybe. Unfortunantly, Harbor Freight's horse didn't even get
out of the gate - wouldn't rotate. Still, the idea of an air driven spindle is
attractive.
Another difficulty with using 1/4 inch die grinders for cutting tools 1/8
in. & below is the need of a tool holder, typically a piece of 1/4 inch bar
stock with an 1/8 in hole for tools with 1/8 inch shanks. A little epoxy and
careful holding while curing gets within .001 thou pretty reliably. However,
on an .010 endmill, the size for the next effort, .001 thou is a giant. The
equivilent of .050 runout on a .500 in. endmill.
From here where? Go small. "Smaller tools, smaller runout" seems
reasonable. This leads to 1/8 in. spindles, preferably those packaged with a
driving motor, be it electric or air.
A Dremel grinder next will be the next try. That tool definitely leads to
less vibration and the 1/8 inch collet clears one previous problem. If threads
on the Dremel's foremost part are actually 20 mm/2.5mm as appears likely from
rough measurement, mounting should be simple.
However, there are likely better spindles than a consumer hand held grinder
for this application. If anyone knows of one that fit in along these lines, do
let me know.

Hul
Ecnerwal
2013-04-11 01:55:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hul Tytus
Harbor Freight's 1/4 inch electric die grinder was tried
So you actually tried a Horrible Fright die grinder (showing a complete
lack of good judgement), and damned a brand-name quality-controlled
laminate trimmer without actually trying it, because in your judgement
they are exactly the same?
Post by Hul Tytus
From here where? Go small. "Smaller tools, smaller runout" seems
reasonable.
Your reasoning is flawed. Better bearings, smaller runout. Proper
collets = no need for shady adapters. Or you buy tools with the proper
shank size for a collet you have. And not from HF. Not any of it from HF.

"precision rotating machinery" and "horrible fright" only go together in
the manner of: Don't buy "PRM" from "HF"

Likewise, if you want a decent "thing that resembles a Dremel tool"
neither Dremel nor the cheap knock-offs are a good bet. Crummy bearings.

I suspect from your choices thus far you are beyond help. Have fun.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.
Wild_Bill
2013-04-11 06:38:24 UTC
Permalink
When I see folks attempting or proposing accurate production-type
performance with HF tools, my initial response is Are You Serious?

I know in some minds cheap is better than quality, it replaces quality with
imagined performance and value.
But.. some RCMers have had moderate/good success with some HF products,
usually combined with a lot of time and effort.

I think it was Bob (La Blond yumabassman) that achieved a certain level of
sucess with high speed milling of mostly aluminum with HF's flex shaft
rotary tools.
He was making molds for fishing lures on a CNC'd mini-mill.
IIRC, the spindle speed was about 15k RPM.

I don't know how the new Goog groups search works anymore, I can't even get
postings to display, and I dunno another way to search RCM archives.

I believe there were at least a few others that have utilized major brand
name laminate trimmers for high speed spindles.
--
WB
.........
Post by Ecnerwal
Post by Hul Tytus
Harbor Freight's 1/4 inch electric die grinder was tried
So you actually tried a Horrible Fright die grinder (showing a complete
lack of good judgement), and damned a brand-name quality-controlled
laminate trimmer without actually trying it, because in your judgement
they are exactly the same?
Post by Hul Tytus
From here where? Go small. "Smaller tools, smaller runout" seems
reasonable.
Your reasoning is flawed. Better bearings, smaller runout. Proper
collets = no need for shady adapters. Or you buy tools with the proper
shank size for a collet you have. And not from HF. Not any of it from HF.
"precision rotating machinery" and "horrible fright" only go together in
the manner of: Don't buy "PRM" from "HF"
Likewise, if you want a decent "thing that resembles a Dremel tool"
neither Dremel nor the cheap knock-offs are a good bet. Crummy bearings.
I suspect from your choices thus far you are beyond help. Have fun.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.
d***@kbrx.com
2013-04-11 10:41:41 UTC
Permalink
There's definitely some validity to your feelings, but...
Porter Cable's trimmer has a head, ie the bearing support closest to
the collet, that's made of aluminum rather than plastic. This is stronger &
more stable than plastics and certainly viewed favorably. Unfortunantly,
there's no obvious and "hardy" method of mounting. Certainly doable, but
time consuming and likely to require multiple variations.
Now, if Porter Cable had a 1/8 in. collect for their trimmer or if .015
diameter end mills were available with 1/4 inch shanks, their trimmer
might be worth a try, especially if a good mount became apparant.
Otherwise, on to a Dremel grinder with less vibration & a 1/8 inch
collet, unless someone knows of a better spindle or "grinder" about the
same size, which should be out there somewhere.

Hul
Post by Ecnerwal
Post by Hul Tytus
Harbor Freight's 1/4 inch electric die grinder was tried
So you actually tried a Horrible Fright die grinder (showing a complete
lack of good judgement), and damned a brand-name quality-controlled
laminate trimmer without actually trying it, because in your judgement
they are exactly the same?
Post by Hul Tytus
From here where? Go small. "Smaller tools, smaller runout" seems
reasonable.
Your reasoning is flawed. Better bearings, smaller runout. Proper
collets = no need for shady adapters. Or you buy tools with the proper
shank size for a collet you have. And not from HF. Not any of it from HF.
"precision rotating machinery" and "horrible fright" only go together in
the manner of: Don't buy "PRM" from "HF"
Likewise, if you want a decent "thing that resembles a Dremel tool"
neither Dremel nor the cheap knock-offs are a good bet. Crummy bearings.
I suspect from your choices thus far you are beyond help. Have fun.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.
PCS
2013-04-11 11:38:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@kbrx.com
Otherwise, on to a Dremel grinder with less vibration & a 1/8 inch
collet, unless someone knows of a better spindle or "grinder" about the
same size, which should be out there somewhere.
Get serious:

http://www.airturbinetools.com/

One of their CAT40 versions is on my shop wish-list just for the shits-n-giggles it would bring.

Or, as PM linked, NSK's got a respected line of high speed air spindles also.

--

PaulS
Gunner Asch
2013-04-13 13:38:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@kbrx.com
Now, if Porter Cable had a 1/8 in. collect for their trimmer or if .015
diameter end mills were available with 1/4 inch shanks, their trimmer
might be worth a try,
Reducing adapters are readily available.

Basiclly a 1/4" shank with a collet adapter on the end. Easily found

Gunner
Jon Elson
2013-04-11 04:24:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hul Tytus
rec.crafts.metalworking
Re: high-speed spindles
Harbor Freight's 1/4 inch electric die grinder was tried, first for
drilling some small diameter holes in aluminum blocks and then milling
solder paste stencils in 3 & 5 mil brass sheet.
I've been making solder stencils using the exact same process and
equipment I used to make PC boards. I use 3 mil brass shim stock
(I started with 5 mil, but the 3 mil works better).
I wet-sand the brass to remove an oil or plastic film that prevents
tarnishing. I use a hot roll laminator used for laminating dry
film photoresist to PC boards to put the resist on both sides of the
shim stock, using a paper shim to get the right roll pressure (as
the machine is adjusted for laminating .062" PC board stock).
I run the brass through the laminator twice to get both sides
coated with resist.

I built a laser photoplotter some years ago, and make two
master artworks, one a mirror image of the other. I glue
the two artworks together, aligning them on a light table.
I slip the resist-coated shim stock between the artworks
and put in a vacuum frame, and expose both sides to UV.
I develop in dry film developer and etch in a spray etcher
with ferric chloride for about 2 minutes.

The big problem with this is figuring out the right aperture
size for each pad size. I am getting this process dialed
in, and the boards are coming out better and better. I
do some parts with lead pitches down to 0.4 mm, which is
real tricky. SO and even SSOP chips are working perfectly
now, but anything smaller than 0.65 mm and I have some
bridging.

Jon
d***@kbrx.com
2013-04-11 14:52:16 UTC
Permalink
Jon - sounds like you have a good process for the stencils but you had the
advantage, initially at least, of using it also for pc boards. In terms of
time & money, assembling the equipment needed just for stencils is costly.
On another subject, have you found an easily interfaced merchant
account for credit cards for your web site? I'm planning on selling some
electronic gear over the internet and I'm looking for suggestions on
handling the cards.

Hul
Post by Jon Elson
Post by Hul Tytus
rec.crafts.metalworking
Re: high-speed spindles
Harbor Freight's 1/4 inch electric die grinder was tried, first for
drilling some small diameter holes in aluminum blocks and then milling
solder paste stencils in 3 & 5 mil brass sheet.
I've been making solder stencils using the exact same process and
equipment I used to make PC boards. I use 3 mil brass shim stock
(I started with 5 mil, but the 3 mil works better).
I wet-sand the brass to remove an oil or plastic film that prevents
tarnishing. I use a hot roll laminator used for laminating dry
film photoresist to PC boards to put the resist on both sides of the
shim stock, using a paper shim to get the right roll pressure (as
the machine is adjusted for laminating .062" PC board stock).
I run the brass through the laminator twice to get both sides
coated with resist.
I built a laser photoplotter some years ago, and make two
master artworks, one a mirror image of the other. I glue
the two artworks together, aligning them on a light table.
I slip the resist-coated shim stock between the artworks
and put in a vacuum frame, and expose both sides to UV.
I develop in dry film developer and etch in a spray etcher
with ferric chloride for about 2 minutes.
The big problem with this is figuring out the right aperture
size for each pad size. I am getting this process dialed
in, and the boards are coming out better and better. I
do some parts with lead pitches down to 0.4 mm, which is
real tricky. SO and even SSOP chips are working perfectly
now, but anything smaller than 0.65 mm and I have some
bridging.
Jon
Jon Elson
2013-04-11 19:55:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@kbrx.com
Jon - sounds like you have a good process for the stencils but you had the
advantage, initially at least, of using it also for pc boards. In terms of
time & money, assembling the equipment needed just for stencils is costly.
Yes, the accuracy of laser printers makes it unlikely this would work
well from a laser printed transparency film as the master artwork,
especially as you need mirror image films that have to align pretty well.
Post by d***@kbrx.com
On another subject, have you found an easily interfaced merchant
account for credit cards for your web site? I'm planning on selling some
electronic gear over the internet and I'm looking for suggestions on
handling the cards.
I am using Merchant Warehouse, with Authorize.net as the payment
gateway. Between the two, it costs about $45 a month to have these
accounts. Merchant Warehouse has a minimum $35 fee.

Using OScMax, they only have an interface to Authorize.net AIM, but not
their SIM. AIM has your web site receiving the credit card #, which
then means you need to be PCI compliant. I'd much rather use the SIM
interface, which shifts the customer over to Authorize.net's web page
to do the credit card transaction, but OScMax doesn't have an interface
for that. The PCI compliance nightmare keeps me up at night.

Anyway, unless you are at least as serious about an on-line business
as I am, you really DON'T want to get involved in this, it will take
a LOT of time to make it work and keep it secure.

Jon
d***@kbrx.com
2013-04-11 20:09:09 UTC
Permalink
Jon - thanks for the suggestions about credit cards, especially
authorize.net's AIM & SIM interfaces.

Hul
Post by Jon Elson
Post by d***@kbrx.com
Jon - sounds like you have a good process for the stencils but you had the
advantage, initially at least, of using it also for pc boards. In terms of
time & money, assembling the equipment needed just for stencils is costly.
Yes, the accuracy of laser printers makes it unlikely this would work
well from a laser printed transparency film as the master artwork,
especially as you need mirror image films that have to align pretty well.
Post by d***@kbrx.com
On another subject, have you found an easily interfaced merchant
account for credit cards for your web site? I'm planning on selling some
electronic gear over the internet and I'm looking for suggestions on
handling the cards.
I am using Merchant Warehouse, with Authorize.net as the payment
gateway. Between the two, it costs about $45 a month to have these
accounts. Merchant Warehouse has a minimum $35 fee.
Using OScMax, they only have an interface to Authorize.net AIM, but not
their SIM. AIM has your web site receiving the credit card #, which
then means you need to be PCI compliant. I'd much rather use the SIM
interface, which shifts the customer over to Authorize.net's web page
to do the credit card transaction, but OScMax doesn't have an interface
for that. The PCI compliance nightmare keeps me up at night.
Anyway, unless you are at least as serious about an on-line business
as I am, you really DON'T want to get involved in this, it will take
a LOT of time to make it work and keep it secure.
Jon
Jon Elson
2013-04-12 23:11:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@kbrx.com
Jon - thanks for the suggestions about credit cards, especially
authorize.net's AIM & SIM interfaces.
If you find a good web store that works with Authorize.net SIM, or
another good payment gateway that you can use without having to
be PCI compliant, I'd sure be interested. I'm not a PHP coder although
I can generally follow what is going on in the osCmax scripts and
make very small changes, I'm nowhere up to speed to try rolling my own
interface to Authorize.net's SIM.

Jon
d***@kbrx.com
2013-04-13 20:45:31 UTC
Permalink
Jon - if you are familiar with the C programming language, you might
look... it's been a few years and I'm not up on the proper buzz words;
stated more generally: there is an http:// interface attachment for Unix
systems, something or other C this that..., which enables coding internet
pages with c. You would probably find the name of the attachment
and the name of the company that makes it familiar.
Whether this would be an advantage with Authorize.net's Sim interface is
merely hope on my part. Take a look at rs-big-print.com to see what has
been done so far.

Hul
Post by Jon Elson
Post by d***@kbrx.com
Jon - thanks for the suggestions about credit cards, especially
authorize.net's AIM & SIM interfaces.
If you find a good web store that works with Authorize.net SIM, or
another good payment gateway that you can use without having to
be PCI compliant, I'd sure be interested. I'm not a PHP coder although
I can generally follow what is going on in the osCmax scripts and
make very small changes, I'm nowhere up to speed to try rolling my own
interface to Authorize.net's SIM.
Jon
Gunner Asch
2013-04-13 13:44:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Elson
Post by d***@kbrx.com
Jon - sounds like you have a good process for the stencils but you had the
advantage, initially at least, of using it also for pc boards. In terms of
time & money, assembling the equipment needed just for stencils is costly.
Yes, the accuracy of laser printers makes it unlikely this would work
well from a laser printed transparency film as the master artwork,
especially as you need mirror image films that have to align pretty well.
Post by d***@kbrx.com
On another subject, have you found an easily interfaced merchant
account for credit cards for your web site? I'm planning on selling some
electronic gear over the internet and I'm looking for suggestions on
handling the cards.
I am using Merchant Warehouse, with Authorize.net as the payment
gateway. Between the two, it costs about $45 a month to have these
accounts. Merchant Warehouse has a minimum $35 fee.
Using OScMax, they only have an interface to Authorize.net AIM, but not
their SIM. AIM has your web site receiving the credit card #, which
then means you need to be PCI compliant. I'd much rather use the SIM
interface, which shifts the customer over to Authorize.net's web page
to do the credit card transaction, but OScMax doesn't have an interface
for that. The PCI compliance nightmare keeps me up at night.
Anyway, unless you are at least as serious about an on-line business
as I am, you really DON'T want to get involved in this, it will take
a LOT of time to make it work and keep it secure.
Jon
anyone had any experience with Paypal credit card handling?

I just got one of their card readers the plugs into the headphone jack
of my cell phone.. Seems to work well enough. I think its something
like 2.7% per transaction

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.paypal.here&hl=en


Gunner
Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)
2013-04-15 01:35:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner Asch
Post by Jon Elson
Post by d***@kbrx.com
Jon - sounds like you have a good process for the stencils but you had the
advantage, initially at least, of using it also for pc boards. In terms of
time & money, assembling the equipment needed just for stencils is costly.
Yes, the accuracy of laser printers makes it unlikely this would work
well from a laser printed transparency film as the master artwork,
especially as you need mirror image films that have to align pretty well.
Post by d***@kbrx.com
On another subject, have you found an easily interfaced merchant
account for credit cards for your web site? I'm planning on selling some
electronic gear over the internet and I'm looking for suggestions on
handling the cards.
I am using Merchant Warehouse, with Authorize.net as the payment
gateway. Between the two, it costs about $45 a month to have these
accounts. Merchant Warehouse has a minimum $35 fee.
Using OScMax, they only have an interface to Authorize.net AIM, but not
their SIM. AIM has your web site receiving the credit card #, which
then means you need to be PCI compliant. I'd much rather use the SIM
interface, which shifts the customer over to Authorize.net's web page
to do the credit card transaction, but OScMax doesn't have an interface
for that. The PCI compliance nightmare keeps me up at night.
Anyway, unless you are at least as serious about an on-line business
as I am, you really DON'T want to get involved in this, it will take
a LOT of time to make it work and keep it secure.
Jon
anyone had any experience with Paypal credit card handling?
I just got one of their card readers the plugs into the headphone jack
of my cell phone.. Seems to work well enough. I think its something
like 2.7% per transaction
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.paypal.here&hl=en
Check that rate - and unless you really need something only they offer
like tapping into online eBay funds, I'd still be wary just because
it's Pay-Pal. They have a long history of behaving badly.

"We don't have to follow normal Banking Rules, we're not a Bank. We
can freeze your money if we want, and we decide whether you get it or
the other party. And we can clean out the attached checking account
and you don't have any say in the matter. Oh, and don't try calling,
we don't have phones for customers - e-mail your problem and we'll get
to it when we choose to."

We got Square for Westend, and IIRC it's 2.1% or 2.3% to clear, and
they drop it in the company checking account. Bada-Boom. And Intuit
has one too...

If you were using Credit Cards for an online store you almost have to
go with a regular Merchant Account - I don't know if any of the
Phone-based systems let you type in a credit card number by hand and
process a 'No card present' or 'Mail Order' sale - the whole reason
for the mag-stripe reader dongle is proof you had the card in your
hand and it looks legit to you.

If you generated enough volume of sales to justify the monthly fees,
the clearing percentages are far lower and you would do a lot better
with a regular merchant account.

But for onesy-twosy in-the-field credit card sales (and some months
none at all) they phone-based systems can't be beat.

--<< Bruce >>--
Gunner Asch
2013-04-15 03:27:34 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 18:35:59 -0700, "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human
Post by Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)
Post by Gunner Asch
Post by Jon Elson
Post by d***@kbrx.com
Jon - sounds like you have a good process for the stencils but you had the
advantage, initially at least, of using it also for pc boards. In terms of
time & money, assembling the equipment needed just for stencils is costly.
Yes, the accuracy of laser printers makes it unlikely this would work
well from a laser printed transparency film as the master artwork,
especially as you need mirror image films that have to align pretty well.
Post by d***@kbrx.com
On another subject, have you found an easily interfaced merchant
account for credit cards for your web site? I'm planning on selling some
electronic gear over the internet and I'm looking for suggestions on
handling the cards.
I am using Merchant Warehouse, with Authorize.net as the payment
gateway. Between the two, it costs about $45 a month to have these
accounts. Merchant Warehouse has a minimum $35 fee.
Using OScMax, they only have an interface to Authorize.net AIM, but not
their SIM. AIM has your web site receiving the credit card #, which
then means you need to be PCI compliant. I'd much rather use the SIM
interface, which shifts the customer over to Authorize.net's web page
to do the credit card transaction, but OScMax doesn't have an interface
for that. The PCI compliance nightmare keeps me up at night.
Anyway, unless you are at least as serious about an on-line business
as I am, you really DON'T want to get involved in this, it will take
a LOT of time to make it work and keep it secure.
Jon
anyone had any experience with Paypal credit card handling?
I just got one of their card readers the plugs into the headphone jack
of my cell phone.. Seems to work well enough. I think its something
like 2.7% per transaction
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.paypal.here&hl=en
Check that rate - and unless you really need something only they offer
like tapping into online eBay funds, I'd still be wary just because
it's Pay-Pal. They have a long history of behaving badly.
"We don't have to follow normal Banking Rules, we're not a Bank. We
can freeze your money if we want, and we decide whether you get it or
the other party. And we can clean out the attached checking account
and you don't have any say in the matter. Oh, and don't try calling,
we don't have phones for customers - e-mail your problem and we'll get
to it when we choose to."
We got Square for Westend, and IIRC it's 2.1% or 2.3% to clear, and
they drop it in the company checking account. Bada-Boom. And Intuit
has one too...
If you were using Credit Cards for an online store you almost have to
go with a regular Merchant Account - I don't know if any of the
Phone-based systems let you type in a credit card number by hand and
process a 'No card present' or 'Mail Order' sale - the whole reason
for the mag-stripe reader dongle is proof you had the card in your
hand and it looks legit to you.
If you generated enough volume of sales to justify the monthly fees,
the clearing percentages are far lower and you would do a lot better
with a regular merchant account.
But for onesy-twosy in-the-field credit card sales (and some months
none at all) they phone-based systems can't be beat.
--<< Bruce >>--
Ive never attached my checking account to PayPal.

Intentionally.

Gunner

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