Discussion:
OT: Generator voltage regulator issues...
(too old to reply)
dpb
2017-02-01 15:32:43 UTC
Permalink
The sidebar on tach's made me realize there's a lot of knowledge here...

Patient: Old (1958) Chebby C60 grain truck, 283ci V8, 12V system,
3-terminal external regulator.

Symptom: Quit charging suddenly.

Diagnostics to date: Pulled Field terminal from regulator, jump to
ground and show good output voltage/current from generator. So
generator is working.

Action: Replaced regulator, set field polarity by jumping from BAT to
FLD, restart and VOILA! charging just fine. Took for short test run,
seemed perfectly normal. Thought done.

Rest of the story:

Am using at moment for hauling limbs from trees downed by our ice storm
of a week ago last Sunday...have run out of room on the place so been
hauling to the city burn pile, hence decided ought to check on running
lights, etc., etc., ... so, after the above return to house, turned on
lights and did a walk-around to check lights (all working but RR bed
running lamp, btw, sorta' a shock :) ). Turned off lights, truck to
check on ground and bulb and whatever for that light. When opened
access went back and restarted truck. No chargie any longer, identical
symptoms as to before installing the new regulator. :( Just for grins
redid the polarity jump; got good spark, but no joy...

I'm now at a loss for cause here...anybody got ideas?

OBTW, the battery holds charge well and will recharge fine on the
charger after running all day without getting charged but that's kinda'
annoying to have to deal with...

--
Bob La Londe
2017-02-01 17:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
The sidebar on tach's made me realize there's a lot of knowledge here...
Patient: Old (1958) Chebby C60 grain truck, 283ci V8, 12V system,
3-terminal external regulator.
Symptom: Quit charging suddenly.
Diagnostics to date: Pulled Field terminal from regulator, jump to ground
and show good output voltage/current from generator. So generator is
working.
Action: Replaced regulator, set field polarity by jumping from BAT to
FLD, restart and VOILA! charging just fine. Took for short test run,
seemed perfectly normal. Thought done.
My first car was a 1967 Ford Cortina. It had a generator, and I often had
to flash it to get it charging. I installed a button to do that manually
from inside the car. Then I discovered I could get it to self flash, by
just revving the engine a bit. It was also a pain, so one day when I had
some extra cash I made a bracket and installed a single wire interanl
regulator AC/Delco alternator. Probably my first ever metal working
project. Its amazing what you can do with a torch, hammer, and hand drill
if you have to. It didn't even eat belts.
dpb
2017-02-01 19:04:47 UTC
Permalink
On 02/01/2017 11:36 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
...
Post by Bob La Londe
some extra cash I made a bracket and installed a single wire interanl
regulator AC/Delco alternator. Probably my first ever metal working
project. Its amazing what you can do with a torch, hammer, and hand drill
if you have to. It didn't even eat belts.
Have thought of doing that over the years off and on, but didn't really
want to take the time out at the moment. I did look at it once and
there would be some fabrication to do from scratch. I've not tried to
find a later vintage bracket from point at which GM switched over; I'd
presume it ought to bolt to the 283 block pretty much as is...

But, was hoping to find a quicker solution for now altho can continue to
get by until spring planting season (this is the seed tender in its day
job these days) by just parking near the silo where there's an outlet
and putting the charger on it overnight with a timer...just that when
checked out that the generator was actually ok and brushes aren't worn,
etc., that a regulator would solve the problem seemed automatic and that
only takes a few minutes. Then as noted, the tach thread reminded me of
the wealth of experience/knowledge here so just thought it the symptoms
gave anybody an "aha!" moment.

I think just to make sure I'll swap a battery for this one for a quick
check that something really funky isn't going on there, but it surely
doesn't seem likely given that it's holding charge, recharging on
external charger and functioning normally as can tell otherwise, but
just to check.

Seems after that almost has to be wiring problem somewhere. Strange in
that if were grounding would think it would run battery down which
doesn't happen and ammeter does show discharge when lights on so its
circuitry seems intact...

--
Jim Wilkins
2017-02-01 21:25:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
...
Post by Bob La Londe
some extra cash I made a bracket and installed a single wire
interanl
regulator AC/Delco alternator. Probably my first ever metal
working
project. Its amazing what you can do with a torch, hammer, and hand drill
if you have to. It didn't even eat belts.
Have thought of doing that over the years off and on, but didn't
really want to take the time out at the moment. I did look at it
once and there would be some fabrication to do from scratch. I've
not tried to find a later vintage bracket from point at which GM
switched over; I'd presume it ought to bolt to the 283 block pretty
much as is...
But, was hoping to find a quicker solution for now altho can
continue to get by until spring planting season (this is the seed
tender in its day job these days) by just parking near the silo
where there's an outlet and putting the charger on it overnight with
a timer...just that when checked out that the generator was actually
ok and brushes aren't worn, etc., that a regulator would solve the
problem seemed automatic and that only takes a few minutes. Then as
noted, the tach thread reminded me of the wealth of
experience/knowledge here so just thought it the symptoms gave
anybody an "aha!" moment.
I think just to make sure I'll swap a battery for this one for a
quick check that something really funky isn't going on there, but it
surely doesn't seem likely given that it's holding charge,
recharging on external charger and functioning normally as can tell
otherwise, but just to check.
Seems after that almost has to be wiring problem somewhere. Strange
in that if were grounding would think it would run battery down
which doesn't happen and ammeter does show discharge when lights on
so its circuitry seems intact...
--
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=618770
Larry Jaques
2017-02-02 01:04:39 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 1 Feb 2017 16:25:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by dpb
I think just to make sure I'll swap a battery for this one for a
quick check that something really funky isn't going on there, but it
surely doesn't seem likely given that it's holding charge,
recharging on external charger and functioning normally as can tell
otherwise, but just to check.
You can do a quick check on the charging system by starting the
engine, disconnecting the negative battery terminal from the battery,
and turning on the headlights. If it stays running, the charging
system is likely alright. If it runs without the lights, the system
is funky but putting out some charge. And if it dies, the charging
system isn't working at all.
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by dpb
Seems after that almost has to be wiring problem somewhere. Strange
in that if were grounding would think it would run battery down
which doesn't happen and ammeter does show discharge when lights on
so its circuitry seems intact...
--
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=618770
Tracing the ends of the "big red wire from regulator to ammeter and
back" usually finds the problem. (Don't forget bulkhead connectors on
newer vehicles. Sometimes water has gotten between the contacts and
eroded them right there in the connector going through the firewall.)

-
"Surprisingly, open-minded Hollywood has not yet agreed to allow
unvetted refugees to mill freely about their heavily guarded film
studios." --Twitter satirist @weknowwhatsbest
Jim Wilkins
2017-02-02 03:29:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Jaques
On Wed, 1 Feb 2017 16:25:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by dpb
I think just to make sure I'll swap a battery for this one for a
quick check that something really funky isn't going on there, but it
surely doesn't seem likely given that it's holding charge,
recharging on external charger and functioning normally as can tell
otherwise, but just to check.
You can do a quick check on the charging system by starting the
engine, disconnecting the negative battery terminal from the
battery,
and turning on the headlights. If it stays running, the charging
system is likely alright. If it runs without the lights, the system
is funky but putting out some charge. And if it dies, the charging
system isn't working at all.
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by dpb
Seems after that almost has to be wiring problem somewhere.
Strange
in that if were grounding would think it would run battery down
which doesn't happen and ammeter does show discharge when lights on
so its circuitry seems intact...
--
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=618770
Tracing the ends of the "big red wire from regulator to ammeter and
back" usually finds the problem. (Don't forget bulkhead connectors on
newer vehicles. Sometimes water has gotten between the contacts and
eroded them right there in the connector going through the
firewall.)
-
"Surprisingly, open-minded Hollywood has not yet agreed to allow
unvetted refugees to mill freely about their heavily guarded film
If you have the means to force 1.0 Amp DC through a circuit the
milliVolt drops along it correspond to milliOhms of resistance.

I use a lab supply set to less than 1V to avoid damage if the
suspicious connection opens while I'm poking it.
https://www.amazon.com/PS305-Digital-Power-Supply-30V/dp/B00EZZV4GK

This has a higher power range, to 50V and 15A. It needs a power source
that can be crude. I made mine from a buzz box arc welder. Solar
panels work too.
https://www.amazon.com/uniquegoods-Step-down-Programmable-Adjustable-Regulator/dp/B01N3YSE6S

-jsw
dpb
2017-02-03 15:07:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Jaques
On Wed, 1 Feb 2017 16:25:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
...
Post by Larry Jaques
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by dpb
Seems after that almost has to be wiring problem somewhere. Strange
in that if were grounding would think it would run battery down
which doesn't happen and ammeter does show discharge when lights on
so its circuitry seems intact...
--
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=618770
Tracing the ends of the "big red wire from regulator to ammeter and
back" usually finds the problem. ...
Thought while still in 10F range this AM I'd review comments to see if
had missed anything hadn't thought of...

The above makes me think--one symptom is that even when is in the "not
charging" condition so ammeter isn't showing anything, turning on lights
_does_ show the draw they're pulling so that portion of circuit is not
where the problem is...

There are two of the "big red wahrs" at the BAT connection on the
regulator; they're in factory-original crimped connector; that's a
possibility for the corrosion theory. I'd cleaned up the connector
itself; probably be good to just replace this one on general principles...

--
Jim Wilkins
2017-02-03 19:19:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
Post by Larry Jaques
On Wed, 1 Feb 2017 16:25:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
...
Post by Larry Jaques
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by dpb
Seems after that almost has to be wiring problem somewhere.
Strange
in that if were grounding would think it would run battery down
which doesn't happen and ammeter does show discharge when lights on
so its circuitry seems intact...
--
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=618770
Tracing the ends of the "big red wire from regulator to ammeter and
back" usually finds the problem. ...
Thought while still in 10F range this AM I'd review comments to see
if had missed anything hadn't thought of...
The above makes me think--one symptom is that even when is in the
"not charging" condition so ammeter isn't showing anything, turning
on lights _does_ show the draw they're pulling so that portion of
circuit is not where the problem is...
There are two of the "big red wahrs" at the BAT connection on the
regulator; they're in factory-original crimped connector; that's a
possibility for the corrosion theory. I'd cleaned up the connector
itself; probably be good to just replace this one on general
principles...
--
Old batteries can develop an internal resistance to charging current
that shows up as very low current accepted with 15V or even 16V
applied. I was given a "dead" riding mower battery that initially
wouldn't take 0.1A at 16V. After a few hours on a home-made adjustable
voltage regulator fed from a solar panel it came back to life and I'm
still using it two years later.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/sulfation_and_how_to_prevent_it
"...reversible sulfation can often be corrected by applying an
overcharge to an already fully charged battery in the form of a
regulated current of about 200mA. The battery terminal voltage is
allowed to rise to between 2.50 and 2.66V/cell (15 and 16V on a 12V
mono block) for about 24 hours."

The power supply needs current limiting because if the procedure works
the battery voltage drops and it can pull more and more current as it
recovers, possibly enough to gas away the electrolyte level to below
the top of the plates which is damaging. You shouldn't fully top up
the water before charging because its level will rise during the
charge.

I build these or the 10 Amp model into my adjustable battery chargers
so I can watch both the voltage and current and follow the battery
manufacturers' charging suggestions which require knowing them.
https://www.amazon.com/Yeeco-0-33-00V-Voltmeter-Multimeter-Monitoring/dp/B00ORXEXEK

A battery that's been nursed back isn't permanently cured, it may go
bad again in weeks or months unless you top it off regularly. I try
for the first of each month, though forgetting one or two hasn't
appeared to hurt them.

I just finished topping off all the good batteries for this month and
put a basket case AGM on the LM350 solar-powered charger. It started
at 22mA with 16V applied. The "45W" Harbor Freight solar panel kit I
bought 5 years ago has aged to around 20W and isn't good for much
except this task of making old batteries last longer.

-jsw
dpb
2017-02-03 19:52:06 UTC
Permalink
On 02/03/2017 1:19 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
Post by Jim Wilkins
Old batteries can develop an internal resistance to charging current
that shows up as very low current accepted with 15V or even 16V
applied. ...
Yeah, I'm aware of that but the symptoms here aren't the same -- it's
either charging normally or nothing is happening, one or the other. I'm
convinced it's a break somewhere that's opening/closing depending up
vibration or whatever.

I did find a Mr Goodwrench wiring diagram of about right vintage for the
3100, 4600 and 6000 series trucks and it's got a couple multi-pin
connectors shown on it in front of the dash line before getting past
firewall for the cable containing the field and armature wires on way to
regulator. I surely didn't notice that in the looking but will be on
look out for them. A pin there could certainly cause the
symptoms...it's still barely above freezing so not exactly the mostest
comfortable time to be digging around but do need to get back onto the
limb cleanup chore so guess will go bundle up and see if tractor will
crank...had the block heater on for about 3 hr now, so it it's going to
turn over it will or won't. It, unfortunately, is also getting some age
on it altho still pretty low hours as it has like the truck been
relegated to loader duty instead of every day field work as it has been
passed by with time...

Anyways, do appreciate the thoughts...

--
Jim Wilkins
2017-02-03 20:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
...
Post by Jim Wilkins
Old batteries can develop an internal resistance to charging
current
that shows up as very low current accepted with 15V or even 16V
applied. ...
Yeah, I'm aware of that but the symptoms here aren't the same --
it's either charging normally or nothing is happening, one or the
other. I'm convinced it's a break somewhere that's opening/closing
depending up vibration or whatever.
I did find a Mr Goodwrench wiring diagram of about right vintage for
the 3100, 4600 and 6000 series trucks and it's got a couple
multi-pin connectors shown on it in front of the dash line before
getting past firewall for the cable containing the field and
armature wires on way to regulator. I surely didn't notice that in
the looking but will be on look out for them. A pin there could
certainly cause the symptoms...it's still barely above freezing so
not exactly the mostest comfortable time to be digging around but do
need to get back onto the limb cleanup chore so guess will go bundle
up and see if tractor will crank...had the block heater on for about
3 hr now, so it it's going to turn over it will or won't. It,
unfortunately, is also getting some age on it altho still pretty low
hours as it has like the truck been relegated to loader duty instead
of every day field work as it has been passed by with time...
Anyways, do appreciate the thoughts...
I've tossed out what I know in general, without being there with test
equipment. In theory the Army trained me to diagnose electrical faults
over the phone so I could lug as little as possible out to the field
site.

I spent the morning outside testing my newly repackaged LM350
regulator by charging the vehicle batteries. Yep, it's cold out there
in the wind.

This afternoon I walked past the truck to get the mail and smelled hot
or burning phenolic. UH-OH!

I sincerely hope it was just someone driving by with the parking brake
on. One car's engine did sound like it was working harder than normal.

...The smell is gone now.

-jsw
dpb
2017-02-03 21:31:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by dpb
...
Post by Jim Wilkins
Old batteries can develop an internal resistance to charging
current
that shows up as very low current accepted with 15V or even 16V
applied. ...
Yeah, I'm aware of that but the symptoms here aren't the same --
it's either charging normally or nothing is happening, one or the
other. I'm convinced it's a break somewhere that's opening/closing
depending up vibration or whatever.
I did find a Mr Goodwrench wiring diagram of about right vintage for
the 3100, 4600 and 6000 series trucks and it's got a couple
multi-pin connectors shown on it in front of the dash line before
getting past firewall for the cable containing the field and
armature wires on way to regulator. I surely didn't notice that in
the looking but will be on look out for them. A pin there could
certainly cause the symptoms...it's still barely above freezing so
not exactly the mostest comfortable time to be digging around but do
need to get back onto the limb cleanup chore so guess will go bundle
up and see if tractor will crank...had the block heater on for about
3 hr now, so it it's going to turn over it will or won't. It,
unfortunately, is also getting some age on it altho still pretty low
hours as it has like the truck been relegated to loader duty instead
of every day field work as it has been passed by with time...
Anyways, do appreciate the thoughts...
I've tossed out what I know in general, without being there with test
equipment. In theory the Army trained me to diagnose electrical faults
over the phone so I could lug as little as possible out to the field
site.
I spent the morning outside testing my newly repackaged LM350
regulator by charging the vehicle batteries. Yep, it's cold out there
in the wind.
This afternoon I walked past the truck to get the mail and smelled hot
or burning phenolic. UH-OH!
I sincerely hope it was just someone driving by with the parking brake
on. One car's engine did sound like it was working harder than normal.
...The smell is gone now.
Let's hope it stays gone... :)

Just finished loading up another load to head out to the county dumping
site so taking break before...too cold for side of the road stops! :)

And I appreciate the inputs...my take is that when it is charging, like
it was when cranked up again this afternoon that it shows pegged or
nearly so right after cranking, then rapidly drops back to moderate
charge and then to just slight positive at idle. That behavior
indicates to me the battery condition is just fine (and it does hold
charge, while doing tumbleweeds when it first manifested the symptoms it
would hold charge for a couple of days of starting frequently and short
runs just here around the farmstead before starting to show signs of
weak cranking. Leave it on the charger for a couple hours and was good
to go again. Then, of course, instead of fixing it then, it got put
away into the shed as other things intervened and now, here I am again!
:) )

I'd think if were battery condition, that charging cycle when it is
charging wouldn't be so...plus that it just is "on/off" behavior now
just smells too much like an intermittent connection to me to have much
chance of being anything else. That make sense to you -- or you think
of reason that's bum thinking?

Anyway, tomorrow/next day is supposed to be nice and warm again, so
it'll be sure to not act up! :)

--
Jim Wilkins
2017-02-03 23:06:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by dpb
...
Post by Jim Wilkins
Old batteries can develop an internal resistance to charging current
that shows up as very low current accepted with 15V or even 16V
applied. ...
Yeah, I'm aware of that but the symptoms here aren't the same --
it's either charging normally or nothing is happening, one or the
other. I'm convinced it's a break somewhere that's
opening/closing
depending up vibration or whatever.
I did find a Mr Goodwrench wiring diagram of about right vintage for
the 3100, 4600 and 6000 series trucks and it's got a couple
multi-pin connectors shown on it in front of the dash line before
getting past firewall for the cable containing the field and
armature wires on way to regulator. I surely didn't notice that in
the looking but will be on look out for them. A pin there could
certainly cause the symptoms...it's still barely above freezing so
not exactly the mostest comfortable time to be digging around but do
need to get back onto the limb cleanup chore so guess will go bundle
up and see if tractor will crank...had the block heater on for about
3 hr now, so it it's going to turn over it will or won't. It,
unfortunately, is also getting some age on it altho still pretty low
hours as it has like the truck been relegated to loader duty
instead
of every day field work as it has been passed by with time...
Anyways, do appreciate the thoughts...
I've tossed out what I know in general, without being there with test
equipment. In theory the Army trained me to diagnose electrical faults
over the phone so I could lug as little as possible out to the field
site.
I spent the morning outside testing my newly repackaged LM350
regulator by charging the vehicle batteries. Yep, it's cold out there
in the wind.
This afternoon I walked past the truck to get the mail and smelled hot
or burning phenolic. UH-OH!
I sincerely hope it was just someone driving by with the parking brake
on. One car's engine did sound like it was working harder than normal.
...The smell is gone now.
Let's hope it stays gone... :)
Just finished loading up another load to head out to the county
dumping site so taking break before...too cold for side of the road
stops! :)
And I appreciate the inputs...my take is that when it is charging,
like it was when cranked up again this afternoon that it shows
pegged or nearly so right after cranking, then rapidly drops back to
moderate charge and then to just slight positive at idle. That
behavior indicates to me the battery condition is just fine (and it
does hold charge, while doing tumbleweeds when it first manifested
the symptoms it would hold charge for a couple of days of starting
frequently and short runs just here around the farmstead before
starting to show signs of weak cranking. Leave it on the charger
for a couple hours and was good to go again. Then, of course,
instead of fixing it then, it got put away into the shed as other
things intervened and now, here I am again! :) )
I'd think if were battery condition, that charging cycle when it is
charging wouldn't be so...plus that it just is "on/off" behavior now
just smells too much like an intermittent connection to me to have
much chance of being anything else. That make sense to you -- or
you think of reason that's bum thinking?
Anyway, tomorrow/next day is supposed to be nice and warm again, so
it'll be sure to not act up! :)
--
I have no experience with mechanical regulators or generators. My
introduction to automotive electronics was a crash course in the new
(1974) fully electronic stuff like HEI and ABS when I took a job with
a company that built custom production test equipment for GM.
-jsw
Jim Wilkins
2017-02-03 23:50:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
..
I'd think if were battery condition, that charging cycle when it is
charging wouldn't be so...plus that it just is "on/off" behavior now
just smells too much like an intermittent connection to me to have
much chance of being anything else. That make sense to you -- or
you think of reason that's bum thinking?
I've traced some strange electrical problems to the battery terminals.

The positive terninal in the truck crumbled around the cables, so I
replaced it with a cast brass terminal. Not too long after it failed
to start while I was shopping at a nursery and I had them tow it up a
hill with their Kubota so I could coast-start it. When I got home I
pulled and disassembled the rebuilt-by-me starter, which was fine. The
problem was that the starter cable clamp on the new brass terminal had
slowly relaxed under stress.
-jsw
Larry Jaques
2017-02-04 19:15:03 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 3 Feb 2017 18:50:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by dpb
..
I'd think if were battery condition, that charging cycle when it is
charging wouldn't be so...plus that it just is "on/off" behavior now
just smells too much like an intermittent connection to me to have
much chance of being anything else. That make sense to you -- or
you think of reason that's bum thinking?
I've traced some strange electrical problems to the battery terminals.
The positive terninal in the truck crumbled around the cables, so I
replaced it with a cast brass terminal. Not too long after it failed
to start while I was shopping at a nursery and I had them tow it up a
hill with their Kubota so I could coast-start it. When I got home I
pulled and disassembled the rebuilt-by-me starter, which was fine. The
problem was that the starter cable clamp on the new brass terminal had
slowly relaxed under stress.
I've seen overtightened brass terminal ends break and then cause
problems with starting. Everything electrical worked, even the
headlights, but the engine wouldn't turn over. That was a quick and
easy fault/find/fix.

-
"Surprisingly, open-minded Hollywood has not yet agreed to allow
unvetted refugees to mill freely about their heavily guarded film
studios." --Twitter satirist @weknowwhatsbest
Larry Jaques
2017-02-03 23:48:52 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 3 Feb 2017 15:52:49 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by dpb
...
Post by Jim Wilkins
Old batteries can develop an internal resistance to charging
current
that shows up as very low current accepted with 15V or even 16V
applied. ...
Yeah, I'm aware of that but the symptoms here aren't the same --
it's either charging normally or nothing is happening, one or the
other. I'm convinced it's a break somewhere that's opening/closing
depending up vibration or whatever.
I did find a Mr Goodwrench wiring diagram of about right vintage for
the 3100, 4600 and 6000 series trucks and it's got a couple
multi-pin connectors shown on it in front of the dash line before
getting past firewall for the cable containing the field and
armature wires on way to regulator. I surely didn't notice that in
the looking but will be on look out for them. A pin there could
certainly cause the symptoms...it's still barely above freezing so
not exactly the mostest comfortable time to be digging around but do
need to get back onto the limb cleanup chore so guess will go bundle
up and see if tractor will crank...had the block heater on for about
3 hr now, so it it's going to turn over it will or won't. It,
unfortunately, is also getting some age on it altho still pretty low
hours as it has like the truck been relegated to loader duty instead
of every day field work as it has been passed by with time...
Anyways, do appreciate the thoughts...
I've tossed out what I know in general, without being there with test
equipment. In theory the Army trained me to diagnose electrical faults
over the phone so I could lug as little as possible out to the field
site.
I spent the morning outside testing my newly repackaged LM350
regulator by charging the vehicle batteries. Yep, it's cold out there
in the wind.
I don't envy your weather, Brother. We have another long set of
storms coming in last night through next week. Good luck, all you
downstream guys. They tend to worsen as they travel over the USA.
Post by Jim Wilkins
This afternoon I walked past the truck to get the mail and smelled hot
or burning phenolic. UH-OH!
I sincerely hope it was just someone driving by with the parking brake
on. One car's engine did sound like it was working harder than normal.
...The smell is gone now.
You retained the magic smoke? That's good to hear.


There's ALWAYS a "whew" moment when you realize THAT smell is NOT
coming from your own vehicle or house or electronics. <g>

I've pulled over a few trucks with smoking brakes on a flat road.
Drive up behind them, smell it, and pull next to them waving them over
and plugging my nose, pointing back at their trailer. One blew me
off, one pulled over and looked, and one pulled over and ran back with
a fire extinguisher in his hand, just in case. I think the latter guy
was the smartest. Maybe it was his own rig.

-
"Surprisingly, open-minded Hollywood has not yet agreed to allow
unvetted refugees to mill freely about their heavily guarded film
studios." --Twitter satirist @weknowwhatsbest
Tim Wescott
2017-02-01 19:04:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
The sidebar on tach's made me realize there's a lot of knowledge here...
Patient: Old (1958) Chebby C60 grain truck, 283ci V8, 12V system,
3-terminal external regulator.
Symptom: Quit charging suddenly.
Diagnostics to date: Pulled Field terminal from regulator, jump to
ground and show good output voltage/current from generator. So
generator is working.
Action: Replaced regulator, set field polarity by jumping from BAT to
FLD, restart and VOILA! charging just fine. Took for short test run,
seemed perfectly normal. Thought done.
Am using at moment for hauling limbs from trees downed by our ice storm
of a week ago last Sunday...have run out of room on the place so been
hauling to the city burn pile, hence decided ought to check on running
lights, etc., etc., ... so, after the above return to house, turned on
lights and did a walk-around to check lights (all working but RR bed
running lamp, btw, sorta' a shock :) ). Turned off lights, truck to
check on ground and bulb and whatever for that light. When opened
access went back and restarted truck. No chargie any longer, identical
symptoms as to before installing the new regulator. :( Just for grins
redid the polarity jump; got good spark, but no joy...
I'm now at a loss for cause here...anybody got ideas?
OBTW, the battery holds charge well and will recharge fine on the
charger after running all day without getting charged but that's kinda'
annoying to have to deal with...
I'm NOT an expert on this, but it sounds like there's a problem in the
wiring that's taking out the regulator, or perhaps the regulator was fine
all along and there's an intermittent connection or a broken wire.

I'd check that the regulator is making good electrical contact to
whatever it's bolted to, and that the panel it's bolted to is making good
electrical contact to the engine block. I'd check that the generator is
also making good electrical contact to the engine block. I'd check that
the connections to the regulator and to the generator are solid. I'd
check that the wire terminations are solid (although if these broke
they'd probably be hanging). I'd check that none of the wires has a
break inside the insulation (which would make for a nasty intermittent
fault that very well might be temporarily cleared by you messing around
with the wiring as you replaced the regulator).

If you use the truck much you'll probably find more joy by replacing the
generator with an alternator. The new one-wire alternators are easy-peasy
to hook up; you just need the right bracket. I'm pretty sure that a late
60's bracket would bolt onto your motor and take a new alternator, but I
couldn't speak for anything later than that. If you undertake to remove
all of the old, no-longer pertinent wiring as you go, you'll probably
clear any of my suspected faults that I list above.
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

I'm looking for work -- see my website!
Tim Wescott
2017-02-01 19:12:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Wescott
Post by dpb
The sidebar on tach's made me realize there's a lot of knowledge here...
Patient: Old (1958) Chebby C60 grain truck, 283ci V8, 12V system,
3-terminal external regulator.
Symptom: Quit charging suddenly.
Diagnostics to date: Pulled Field terminal from regulator, jump to
ground and show good output voltage/current from generator. So
generator is working.
Action: Replaced regulator, set field polarity by jumping from BAT to
FLD, restart and VOILA! charging just fine. Took for short test run,
seemed perfectly normal. Thought done.
Am using at moment for hauling limbs from trees downed by our ice storm
of a week ago last Sunday...have run out of room on the place so been
hauling to the city burn pile, hence decided ought to check on running
lights, etc., etc., ... so, after the above return to house, turned on
lights and did a walk-around to check lights (all working but RR bed
running lamp, btw, sorta' a shock :) ). Turned off lights, truck to
check on ground and bulb and whatever for that light. When opened
access went back and restarted truck. No chargie any longer, identical
symptoms as to before installing the new regulator. :( Just for grins
redid the polarity jump; got good spark, but no joy...
I'm now at a loss for cause here...anybody got ideas?
OBTW, the battery holds charge well and will recharge fine on the
charger after running all day without getting charged but that's kinda'
annoying to have to deal with...
I'm NOT an expert on this, but it sounds like there's a problem in the
wiring that's taking out the regulator, or perhaps the regulator was
fine all along and there's an intermittent connection or a broken wire.
I'd check that the regulator is making good electrical contact to
whatever it's bolted to, and that the panel it's bolted to is making
good electrical contact to the engine block. I'd check that the
generator is also making good electrical contact to the engine block.
I'd check that the connections to the regulator and to the generator are
solid. I'd check that the wire terminations are solid (although if
these broke they'd probably be hanging). I'd check that none of the
wires has a break inside the insulation (which would make for a nasty
intermittent fault that very well might be temporarily cleared by you
messing around with the wiring as you replaced the regulator).
If you use the truck much you'll probably find more joy by replacing the
generator with an alternator. The new one-wire alternators are
easy-peasy to hook up; you just need the right bracket. I'm pretty sure
that a late 60's bracket would bolt onto your motor and take a new
alternator, but I couldn't speak for anything later than that. If you
undertake to remove all of the old, no-longer pertinent wiring as you
go, you'll probably clear any of my suspected faults that I list above.
And, any speed shop that carries stuff for US cars would have a bracket
that would fit, and probably a selection of alternators to boot. Of
course, then you'd have shiny chromed stuff inside the engine compartment
of a farm truck, but hey -- even pigs need lipstick sometimes.
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

I'm looking for work -- see my website!
dpb
2017-02-01 19:16:51 UTC
Permalink
On 02/01/2017 1:04 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
...
Post by Tim Wescott
I'd check that the regulator is making good electrical contact to
whatever it's bolted to, and that the panel it's bolted to is making good
electrical contact to the engine block. ...
As typical for the vintage, the VR is bolted to the firewall and it's
clean connections there; checked/shined up when replaced. It is a good
point that I didn't actually double-check the firewall to the chassis
ground, though...

Thanks, and see above re: alternator. But, while the alternator has
replaced the generator, it's worked for almost 60 year so not _too_
shabby! :) As the other note also says, I'm down to also thinking
there's a wiring fault somewhere; that's going to be some effort to work
through as after 4-5" from the regulator they all go into a wrapped
harness to come out who knows where on the other end? :)

--
Tim Wescott
2017-02-01 19:31:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
...
Post by Tim Wescott
I'd check that the regulator is making good electrical contact to
whatever it's bolted to, and that the panel it's bolted to is making
good electrical contact to the engine block. ...
As typical for the vintage, the VR is bolted to the firewall and it's
clean connections there; checked/shined up when replaced. It is a good
point that I didn't actually double-check the firewall to the chassis
ground, though...
Thanks, and see above re: alternator. But, while the alternator has
replaced the generator, it's worked for almost 60 year so not _too_
shabby! :) As the other note also says, I'm down to also thinking
there's a wiring fault somewhere; that's going to be some effort to work
through as after 4-5" from the regulator they all go into a wrapped
harness to come out who knows where on the other end? :)
If there's no radio then there's not much in that vintage of truck that
would stop working if the cab to chassis ground blinked out. I'm not
entirely sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if the ignition didn't have
its own ground return.

I'm thinking that a wire is broken inside the insulation because it's
(A), consistent with your problem, and (B) not at all visible unless
you're looking for it. My second guess is a prior repair gone wrong.
But I could be completely wrong -- reality isn't good at listening to
theorists, sometimes.

Fortunately, if you catch it when it's persistently not working (like
now, it seems), then just continuity checks of the pertinent wires should
be enough -- after the ground there's what, one wire from generator to
battery, one from battery to regulator, and two from generator to
regulator? If you have a decent wiring diagram and a VOM (or even a bulb
and battery), you should be set for the test.

If you'd rather, go looking at all the likely spots for a broken wire.
If the wire _is_ broken inside the insulation, you'll be able to feel it
quick enough when you wiggle the wire. If it's just too flexible in
exactly one spot, you've found the problem. I'd also look for old
splices as a potential source of problems -- a lump in a wrapped-over bit
of the harness is a good indicator, as is a wire with insulation that
doesn't match the rest of the truck.

Not knowing your truck I can only guess, but the most likely spot for a
problem is where there's a lot of flex, which would either be at a
termination (but the wire would be all the way broken, then), where a
wire goes through a grommet, or where a wire goes into one of those
harnesses.
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

I'm looking for work -- see my website!
dpb
2017-02-01 20:45:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Wescott
Post by dpb
...
Post by Tim Wescott
I'd check that the regulator is making good electrical contact to
whatever it's bolted to, and that the panel it's bolted to is making
good electrical contact to the engine block. ...
As typical for the vintage, the VR is bolted to the firewall and it's
clean connections there; checked/shined up when replaced. It is a good
point that I didn't actually double-check the firewall to the chassis
ground, though...
Thanks, and see above re: alternator. But, while the alternator has
replaced the generator, it's worked for almost 60 year so not _too_
shabby! :) As the other note also says, I'm down to also thinking
there's a wiring fault somewhere; that's going to be some effort to work
through as after 4-5" from the regulator they all go into a wrapped
harness to come out who knows where on the other end? :)
If there's no radio then there's not much in that vintage of truck that
would stop working if the cab to chassis ground blinked out. I'm not
entirely sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if the ignition didn't have
its own ground return.
No, no radio. Back then, KS tax code said a radio meant "pleasure
vehicle" not farm so wasn't tax exempt in that case. Hence, nobody put
radios in trucks when new (and Dad never added one to any of them so
still without). :)
Post by Tim Wescott
I'm thinking that a wire is broken inside the insulation because it's
(A), consistent with your problem, and (B) not at all visible unless
you're looking for it. My second guess is a prior repair gone wrong.
But I could be completely wrong -- reality isn't good at listening to
theorists, sometimes.
Unusual old truck; it's never needed a repair in its lifetime other than
I did redo the brakes from vacuum booster to main to wheel cylinders
about 10 yr ago. Outside that, normal maintenance has been the extent
of work done on it...
Post by Tim Wescott
Fortunately, if you catch it when it's persistently not working (like
now, it seems), then just continuity checks of the pertinent wires should
be enough -- after the ground there's what, one wire from generator to
battery, one from battery to regulator, and two from generator to
regulator? If you have a decent wiring diagram and a VOM (or even a bulb
and battery), you should be set for the test.
Excepting when just went out and cranked 'er up, was charging again just
like new...then did flake back out though, but it's definitely now
intermittent even if more "off" than "on".
Post by Tim Wescott
If you'd rather, go looking at all the likely spots for a broken wire.
If the wire _is_ broken inside the insulation, you'll be able to feel it
quick enough when you wiggle the wire. If it's just too flexible in
exactly one spot, you've found the problem. I'd also look for old
splices as a potential source of problems -- a lump in a wrapped-over bit
of the harness is a good indicator, as is a wire with insulation that
doesn't match the rest of the truck.
Not knowing your truck I can only guess, but the most likely spot for a
problem is where there's a lot of flex, which would either be at a
termination (but the wire would be all the way broken, then), where a
wire goes through a grommet, or where a wire goes into one of those
harnesses.
I do have an electrical diagram but not much relationship to harness and
routing. But, yes, it is pretty limited amount; just that on the top
end as say they all go into that one harness from the VR with 3-4" and
haven't worked as yet to try to get to the other end of them.
Unfortunately, the harnesses are prior to the split loom; they're all
solidly factory-wrapped so there is no checking individual wires within
physically without tearing them apart; it'll have to be continuity
checks when get the time to do so...

Anyways, the thoughts confirm conclusion I'd come to, particularly now
that I've seen today's behavior. Had other chores that came first and
since it's turned colder again had to wait for block heater on the
tractor to get it going so just did. Had to make a pit stop so heated a
cup o' coffee before heading back out after getting chainsaw going that
need to take down some crags still hanging on corral fences...

--
Terry Coombs
2017-02-01 22:59:58 UTC
Permalink
dpb wrote:
a grommet, or where a wire goes into one
Post by dpb
of those harnesses.
I do have an electrical diagram but not much relationship to harness
and routing. But, yes, it is pretty limited amount; just that on the
top end as say they all go into that one harness from the VR with
3-4" and haven't worked as yet to try to get to the other end of them.
Unfortunately, the harnesses are prior to the split loom; they're all
solidly factory-wrapped so there is no checking individual wires
within physically without tearing them apart; it'll have to be
continuity checks when get the time to do so...
Anyways, the thoughts confirm conclusion I'd come to, particularly now
that I've seen today's behavior. Had other chores that came first and
since it's turned colder again had to wait for block heater on the
tractor to get it going so just did. Had to make a pit stop so
heated a cup o' coffee before heading back out after getting chainsaw
going that need to take down some crags still hanging on corral
fences...
Have you checked the contacts in the regulator ?
--
Snag
dpb
2017-02-01 23:13:46 UTC
Permalink
On 02/01/2017 4:59 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
...
Post by Terry Coombs
Have you checked the contacts in the regulator ?
Brand new one yesterday... :)

--
Jim Wilkins
2017-02-01 23:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
...
Post by Terry Coombs
Have you checked the contacts in the regulator ?
Brand new one yesterday... :)
--
http://www.stinsonclub.org/PublicTech/YahooGroup/Delco-Remy%201R-116%20(regulator).pdf
c***@snyder.on.ca
2017-02-02 02:24:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
...
Post by Terry Coombs
Have you checked the contacts in the regulator ?
Brand new one yesterday... :)
Have you checked the brushes and brush-holders in the generator??
Jim Wilkins
2017-02-02 03:40:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@snyder.on.ca
Post by dpb
...
Post by Terry Coombs
Have you checked the contacts in the regulator ?
Brand new one yesterday... :)
Have you checked the brushes and brush-holders in the generator??
The starter in my Ford Ranger became intermittent when the brushes
wore to the limit of their travel. It was hard to tell that they
weren't pressing on the commutator by looking at it. I had to remove
the brush assembly and compare their ID to the commutator's OD.
Fortunately a shop in town had a new brush assembly for $22.
-jsw
dpb
2017-02-02 13:03:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by c***@snyder.on.ca
Post by dpb
...
Post by Terry Coombs
Have you checked the contacts in the regulator ?
Brand new one yesterday... :)
Have you checked the brushes and brush-holders in the generator??
The starter in my Ford Ranger became intermittent when the brushes
wore to the limit of their travel. It was hard to tell that they
weren't pressing on the commutator by looking at it. I had to remove
the brush assembly and compare their ID to the commutator's OD.
Fortunately a shop in town had a new brush assembly for $22.
Actually, when this first started acting up, that was my first
suspicion. As were busy otherwise at the time, took it off and into the
magneto shop in town and he checked it out...brushes and all were good;
have quite a bit of wear left in them. Then it sat and never got back
to the problem until now; was planning on worrying about it a little
later before spring planting season; didn't know was going to have to do
tree limbs first then... :)

But, if is definitely now an intermittent; took a load yesterday and it
started out charging again like it was new; somewhere along the way it
quit and then again on the way back it started up again and was still
going strong when parked it for the evening...

Thanks to all for the tips and the link to the simple generator wiring
diagram was a good reminder; had forgot that it is straight thru the
ammeter on its way to the battery from the regulator.

This is before the days of bulkhead connectors; they all go thru the
firewall and back but also there's a lot of room in there so shouldn't
be too hard to get to the ends...today's to be quite cold again but then
by tomorrow to warm up some so I'll probably just wait for that...

--
Jim Wilkins
2017-02-02 13:47:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by c***@snyder.on.ca
Post by dpb
...
Post by Terry Coombs
Have you checked the contacts in the regulator ?
Brand new one yesterday... :)
Have you checked the brushes and brush-holders in the generator??
The starter in my Ford Ranger became intermittent when the brushes
wore to the limit of their travel. It was hard to tell that they
weren't pressing on the commutator by looking at it. I had to
remove
the brush assembly and compare their ID to the commutator's OD.
Fortunately a shop in town had a new brush assembly for $22.
Actually, when this first started acting up, that was my first
suspicion. As were busy otherwise at the time, took it off and into
the magneto shop in town and he checked it out...brushes and all
were good; have quite a bit of wear left in them. Then it sat and
never got back to the problem until now; was planning on worrying
about it a little later before spring planting season; didn't know
was going to have to do tree limbs first then... :)
But, if is definitely now an intermittent; took a load yesterday and
it started out charging again like it was new; somewhere along the
way it quit and then again on the way back it started up again and
was still going strong when parked it for the evening...
Thanks to all for the tips and the link to the simple generator
wiring diagram was a good reminder; had forgot that it is straight
thru the ammeter on its way to the battery from the regulator.
This is before the days of bulkhead connectors; they all go thru the
firewall and back but also there's a lot of room in there so
shouldn't be too hard to get to the ends...today's to be quite cold
again but then by tomorrow to warm up some so I'll probably just
wait for that...
--
I traced a failure to indicate charging on my tractor to a bug nest
clogging the ammeter. Some of the electrical problems in my truck have
been from road salt corrosion slowly increasing contact resistance
until intermittent failures appear. I undid and cleaned every plug and
ground connection and checked them off by writing the number from the
schematic on them with fine permanent marker on a patch of white nail
polish.

The Ford connector pins pull out the soft back of the shell easily
after extracting the red locking insert with needle nose pliers.
Autozone sells replacement pins, though I could salvage most of them
by scrubbing inside the barrels with the type of pipe cleaner that has
patches of stiffer bristles.

I still don't see the post I sent and you replied to.
-jsw
dpb
2017-02-02 14:48:59 UTC
Permalink
On 02/02/2017 7:47 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
Post by Jim Wilkins
I traced a failure to indicate charging on my tractor to a bug nest
clogging the ammeter. Some of the electrical problems in my truck have
been from road salt corrosion slowly increasing contact resistance
until intermittent failures appear. I undid and cleaned every plug and
ground connection and checked them off by writing the number from the
schematic on them with fine permanent marker on a patch of white nail
polish.
I can relate to that...the wasps and other types out here are terrible
for such things. The ammeter itself here does seem to be fine; when did
the generator check by grounding field connection to regulator it showed
good charging rate which is what made me go ahead and change out the
regulator. It seems somewhere there must be a break as you and others
have surmised; when put back on it started out fine again and then has
been intermittent since.
Post by Jim Wilkins
The Ford connector pins pull out the soft back of the shell easily
after extracting the red locking insert with needle nose pliers.
Autozone sells replacement pins, though I could salvage most of them
by scrubbing inside the barrels with the type of pipe cleaner that has
patches of stiffer bristles.
Don't believe there are any connectors in these runs at all excepting
terminals altho I may find one somewhere but haven't seen any; all the
harness pieces just go thru firewall thru grommets. I've an old JLG
40-ft 40H manlift though that has about 10 gazillion of 'em so I've
gotten pretty practiced at the exercise... :)
Post by Jim Wilkins
I still don't see the post I sent and you replied to.
-jsw
That's nntp for ya'; it isn't necessarily reliable at all...at some
point your news server may randomly upload that subthread again; then
again, it may not... :)

-dpb

--
Jim Wilkins
2017-02-02 17:58:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
...
Post by Jim Wilkins
I traced a failure to indicate charging on my tractor to a bug nest
clogging the ammeter. Some of the electrical problems in my truck have
been from road salt corrosion slowly increasing contact resistance
until intermittent failures appear. I undid and cleaned every plug and
ground connection and checked them off by writing the number from the
schematic on them with fine permanent marker on a patch of white nail
polish.
I can relate to that...the wasps and other types out here are
terrible for such things. The ammeter itself here does seem to be
fine; when did the generator check by grounding field connection to
regulator it showed good charging rate which is what made me go
ahead and change out the regulator. It seems somewhere there must
be a break as you and others have surmised; when put back on it
started out fine again and then has been intermittent since.
Post by Jim Wilkins
The Ford connector pins pull out the soft back of the shell easily
after extracting the red locking insert with needle nose pliers.
Autozone sells replacement pins, though I could salvage most of them
by scrubbing inside the barrels with the type of pipe cleaner that has
patches of stiffer bristles.
Don't believe there are any connectors in these runs at all
excepting terminals altho I may find one somewhere but haven't seen
any; all the harness pieces just go thru firewall thru grommets.
I've an old JLG 40-ft 40H manlift though that has about 10 gazillion
of 'em so I've gotten pretty practiced at the exercise... :)
Post by Jim Wilkins
I still don't see the post I sent and you replied to.
-jsw
That's nntp for ya'; it isn't necessarily reliable at all...at some
point your news server may randomly upload that subthread again;
then again, it may not... :)
-dpb
If you can justify the expense this is a good meter for DC
troubleshooting because it reads down to a few milliAmps without
having to disconnect the wire. I measured and recorded the drain in my
vehicles to compare to later if I have dead battery problems.
https://www.amazon.com/Signstek-UT210E-Handheld-Resistance-Capacitance/dp/B00V9XAT4Y

Voltage readings may not mean much in a battery circuit because they
can be the same for high current in a good circuit or low current in
one with high connection resistance, or to an old battery that may
need as much as 15 to 16V to accept a charge.

Unfortunately it won't show starting current of over 100A, but a cheap
(not Snap-On) ammeter like this is enough to distinguish solenoid
current from solenoid + motor current. I haven't found them very
useful to show charging currents.
http://www.stuttgartperformanceengineering.com/inductiveammater.html

-jsw
dpb
2017-02-02 19:13:56 UTC
Permalink
On 02/02/2017 11:58 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
Post by Jim Wilkins
If you can justify the expense this is a good meter for DC
troubleshooting because it reads down to a few milliAmps without
having to disconnect the wire....
Thanks for the recommendation...my clampon Fluke is only AC current so
adding DC wouldn't be bad...since it does appear there's on terminals on
each end of runs when it warms up and next time it's in apparently
failed state I'll just try to do the continuity check on end-to-end.
Does mean taking loose so that's always a possibility of changing the
state, of course...

It was down to 13F this AM here so not all that interested today...it's
warmed up some but not above freezing yet at noon/one o'clock.
Tim Wescott
2017-02-03 22:29:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
...
Post by Jim Wilkins
I traced a failure to indicate charging on my tractor to a bug nest
clogging the ammeter. Some of the electrical problems in my truck have
been from road salt corrosion slowly increasing contact resistance
until intermittent failures appear. I undid and cleaned every plug and
ground connection and checked them off by writing the number from the
schematic on them with fine permanent marker on a patch of white nail
polish.
I can relate to that...the wasps and other types out here are terrible
for such things. The ammeter itself here does seem to be fine; when did
the generator check by grounding field connection to regulator it showed
good charging rate which is what made me go ahead and change out the
regulator. It seems somewhere there must be a break as you and others
have surmised; when put back on it started out fine again and then has
been intermittent since.
Post by Jim Wilkins
The Ford connector pins pull out the soft back of the shell easily
after extracting the red locking insert with needle nose pliers.
Autozone sells replacement pins, though I could salvage most of them by
scrubbing inside the barrels with the type of pipe cleaner that has
patches of stiffer bristles.
Don't believe there are any connectors in these runs at all excepting
terminals altho I may find one somewhere but haven't seen any; all the
harness pieces just go thru firewall thru grommets. I've an old JLG
40-ft 40H manlift though that has about 10 gazillion of 'em so I've
gotten pretty practiced at the exercise... :)
Post by Jim Wilkins
I still don't see the post I sent and you replied to.
-jsw
That's nntp for ya'; it isn't necessarily reliable at all...at some
point your news server may randomly upload that subthread again; then
again, it may not... :)
-dpb
My 1963 Chevy truck shop manual only shows one connector that's pertinent
to the voltage regulator -- but, 1963...

For some reason the battery from the generator goes to a post on the horn
relay, and thence to the regulator. If yours is the same there could be
a loose connection at the horn relay.
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

I'm looking for work -- see my website!
dpb
2017-02-03 23:44:54 UTC
Permalink
On 02/03/2017 4:29 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
...
Post by Tim Wescott
For some reason the battery from the generator goes to a post on the horn
relay, and thence to the regulator. If yours is the same there could be
a loose connection at the horn relay.
The diagram I have shows just a branch from the BAT connection to the
horn switch whose other side is ground.

The horn hasn't functioned on this ol' guy for probably 30 year or more.
The cap is in a drawer in the odd parts cabinet in the barn where has
been for "like forever". :)

But, thanks for the thoughts...hmmm, though. I suppose perhaps there
could be a ground path there that is intermittent. Need to check that
possibility, indeed.

--
dpb
2017-02-03 23:48:55 UTC
Permalink
On 02/03/2017 4:29 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
...
Post by Tim Wescott
My 1963 Chevy truck shop manual only shows one connector that's pertinent
to the voltage regulator -- but, 1963...
..

This drawing also shows only one -- for some reason the field and
armature leads join the left head/parking lights run in a loom and that
group of six shows a multiple connector between there and the VR.

I don't see that, though, looks like just a wire run to me on this
truck. I'll investigate some more thoroughly when gets a little warmer.

--
c***@snyder.on.ca
2017-02-04 06:13:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
...
Post by Tim Wescott
My 1963 Chevy truck shop manual only shows one connector that's pertinent
to the voltage regulator -- but, 1963...
..
This drawing also shows only one -- for some reason the field and
armature leads join the left head/parking lights run in a loom and that
group of six shows a multiple connector between there and the VR.
I don't see that, though, looks like just a wire run to me on this
truck. I'll investigate some more thoroughly when gets a little warmer.
Does the harness run underneath the battery tray? I remember a couple
early chevy P'ups that had the wiring harness corrode where it went
under the battery tray due to battery acid seapage,
dpb
2017-02-04 14:48:25 UTC
Permalink
On 02/04/2017 12:13 AM, ***@snyder.on.ca wrote:
...
Post by c***@snyder.on.ca
Does the harness run underneath the battery tray? I remember a couple
early chevy P'ups that had the wiring harness corrode where it went
under the battery tray due to battery acid seapage,
Hmmm....well, dunno, can't picture it for the moment. Of course the
primary lead heads off from the positive terminal on its way to the
starter but really can't picture the actual path from memory...the
battery is mounted on the RH-side firewall, mirror image of where VR is
located on LH...

But, I'll check...
dpb
2017-02-04 17:55:08 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by c***@snyder.on.ca
Does the harness run underneath the battery tray? I remember a couple
early chevy P'ups that had the wiring harness corrode where it went
under the battery tray due to battery acid seapage,
Hmmm....well, dunno, can't picture it for the moment. Of course the
primary lead heads off from the positive terminal on its way to the
starter but really can't picture the actual path from memory...the
battery is mounted on the RH-side firewall, mirror image of where VR is
located on LH...
But, I'll check...
Moved it over to the shop area in sun and popped the hood to see...no,
the run to/from the starter aren't in the path of the battery spill,
they just sorta' meander down there and then the return harness goes
thru firewall a foot or so removed from where the battery is...

Will get under there and clean up connections at starter end, though,
just in case...

--
Jim Wilkins
2017-02-04 18:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
...
Post by c***@snyder.on.ca
Does the harness run underneath the battery tray? I remember a couple
early chevy P'ups that had the wiring harness corrode where it went
under the battery tray due to battery acid seapage,
Hmmm....well, dunno, can't picture it for the moment. Of course the
primary lead heads off from the positive terminal on its way to the
starter but really can't picture the actual path from memory...the
battery is mounted on the RH-side firewall, mirror image of where VR is
located on LH...
But, I'll check...
Moved it over to the shop area in sun and popped the hood to
see...no, the run to/from the starter aren't in the path of the
battery spill, they just sorta' meander down there and then the
return harness goes thru firewall a foot or so removed from where
the battery is...
Will get under there and clean up connections at starter end,
though, just in case...
--
Ox-Gard works pretty well on exposed electrical connections, such as
the plated copper lugs on aluminum downlead terminals on my TV
antenna.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Gardner-Bender-1-oz-Ox-Gard-Anti-Oxidant-Compound/4514334

-jsw
dpb
2017-02-04 17:52:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
...
Post by Tim Wescott
My 1963 Chevy truck shop manual only shows one connector that's pertinent
to the voltage regulator -- but, 1963...
..
This drawing also shows only one -- for some reason the field and
armature leads join the left head/parking lights run in a loom and that
group of six shows a multiple connector between there and the VR.
I don't see that, though, looks like just a wire run to me on this
truck. I'll investigate some more thoroughly when gets a little warmer.
How can one be so blind!!?? :) It's right there where the diagram says
it is... :) Looking so hard at the connections on either end just
didn't register, I guess. Anyways, it's a lot warmer today, after
dinner here I'll go do some more probing...checking the condition of
those contacts will be a good starting point.

--
dpb
2017-02-05 18:17:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
...
Post by Tim Wescott
My 1963 Chevy truck shop manual only shows one connector that's
pertinent to the voltage regulator -- but, 1963...
...
Post by dpb
I don't see that, though, looks like just a wire run to me on this
truck. I'll investigate some more thoroughly when gets a little warmer.
How can one be so blind!!?? :) It's right there where the diagram says
it is... :) Looking so hard at the connections on either end just didn't
register, I guess. Anyways, it's a lot warmer today, after dinner here
I'll go do some more probing...checking the condition of those contacts
will be a good starting point.
Well, when looking, could see that at some time in the (probably
distant) past something sharp and heavy apparently was dropped and did
knick the field and armature wires right near that connector (on front
end towards lights, not that that really matters). Thought I'd found
the problem fer shure; so just jumpered those two runs bypassing the
connector/wiring harness straight from the gen connections to the
regulator. And, nothing! Not the problem, obviously altho worthy of
fixing at some time.

Anyway, it's nice enough today will keep on going on the limb cleanup,
starting to trim up the worst of the crags in trees after finish the
shelter belt down stuff along side of lots. It's still intermittent and
charging as much of the time as not so it's letting me keep going
without having to use the charger which is good-enough for now...

Will have to really dive in when get done here, though, as planting time
will be here sooner than later and it gets pretty heavy workout then and
then it's serious if it isn't working and were to hold up planting
getting seed to the field on time.
Tim Wescott
2017-02-03 22:31:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
...
Post by Jim Wilkins
I traced a failure to indicate charging on my tractor to a bug nest
clogging the ammeter. Some of the electrical problems in my truck have
been from road salt corrosion slowly increasing contact resistance
until intermittent failures appear. I undid and cleaned every plug and
ground connection and checked them off by writing the number from the
schematic on them with fine permanent marker on a patch of white nail
polish.
I can relate to that...the wasps and other types out here are terrible
for such things. The ammeter itself here does seem to be fine; when did
the generator check by grounding field connection to regulator it showed
good charging rate which is what made me go ahead and change out the
regulator. It seems somewhere there must be a break as you and others
have surmised; when put back on it started out fine again and then has
been intermittent since.
Post by Jim Wilkins
The Ford connector pins pull out the soft back of the shell easily
after extracting the red locking insert with needle nose pliers.
Autozone sells replacement pins, though I could salvage most of them by
scrubbing inside the barrels with the type of pipe cleaner that has
patches of stiffer bristles.
Don't believe there are any connectors in these runs at all excepting
terminals altho I may find one somewhere but haven't seen any; all the
harness pieces just go thru firewall thru grommets. I've an old JLG
40-ft 40H manlift though that has about 10 gazillion of 'em so I've
gotten pretty practiced at the exercise... :)
Post by Jim Wilkins
I still don't see the post I sent and you replied to.
-jsw
That's nntp for ya'; it isn't necessarily reliable at all...at some
point your news server may randomly upload that subthread again; then
again, it may not... :)
-dpb
If you want to dive in far too deeply:

http://www.gregsonline.com/eshop/Shop_Manuals/58TSM.htm
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

I'm looking for work -- see my website!
e***@whidbey.com
2017-02-02 00:45:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
Post by Tim Wescott
Post by dpb
...
Post by Tim Wescott
I'd check that the regulator is making good electrical contact to
whatever it's bolted to, and that the panel it's bolted to is making
good electrical contact to the engine block. ...
As typical for the vintage, the VR is bolted to the firewall and it's
clean connections there; checked/shined up when replaced. It is a good
point that I didn't actually double-check the firewall to the chassis
ground, though...
Thanks, and see above re: alternator. But, while the alternator has
replaced the generator, it's worked for almost 60 year so not _too_
shabby! :) As the other note also says, I'm down to also thinking
there's a wiring fault somewhere; that's going to be some effort to work
through as after 4-5" from the regulator they all go into a wrapped
harness to come out who knows where on the other end? :)
If there's no radio then there's not much in that vintage of truck that
would stop working if the cab to chassis ground blinked out. I'm not
entirely sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if the ignition didn't have
its own ground return.
No, no radio. Back then, KS tax code said a radio meant "pleasure
vehicle" not farm so wasn't tax exempt in that case. Hence, nobody put
radios in trucks when new (and Dad never added one to any of them so
still without). :)
Post by Tim Wescott
I'm thinking that a wire is broken inside the insulation because it's
(A), consistent with your problem, and (B) not at all visible unless
you're looking for it. My second guess is a prior repair gone wrong.
But I could be completely wrong -- reality isn't good at listening to
theorists, sometimes.
Unusual old truck; it's never needed a repair in its lifetime other than
I did redo the brakes from vacuum booster to main to wheel cylinders
about 10 yr ago. Outside that, normal maintenance has been the extent
of work done on it...
Post by Tim Wescott
Fortunately, if you catch it when it's persistently not working (like
now, it seems), then just continuity checks of the pertinent wires should
be enough -- after the ground there's what, one wire from generator to
battery, one from battery to regulator, and two from generator to
regulator? If you have a decent wiring diagram and a VOM (or even a bulb
and battery), you should be set for the test.
Excepting when just went out and cranked 'er up, was charging again just
like new...then did flake back out though, but it's definitely now
intermittent even if more "off" than "on".
Post by Tim Wescott
If you'd rather, go looking at all the likely spots for a broken wire.
If the wire _is_ broken inside the insulation, you'll be able to feel it
quick enough when you wiggle the wire. If it's just too flexible in
exactly one spot, you've found the problem. I'd also look for old
splices as a potential source of problems -- a lump in a wrapped-over bit
of the harness is a good indicator, as is a wire with insulation that
doesn't match the rest of the truck.
Not knowing your truck I can only guess, but the most likely spot for a
problem is where there's a lot of flex, which would either be at a
termination (but the wire would be all the way broken, then), where a
wire goes through a grommet, or where a wire goes into one of those
harnesses.
I do have an electrical diagram but not much relationship to harness and
routing. But, yes, it is pretty limited amount; just that on the top
end as say they all go into that one harness from the VR with 3-4" and
haven't worked as yet to try to get to the other end of them.
Unfortunately, the harnesses are prior to the split loom; they're all
solidly factory-wrapped so there is no checking individual wires within
physically without tearing them apart; it'll have to be continuity
checks when get the time to do so...
Anyways, the thoughts confirm conclusion I'd come to, particularly now
that I've seen today's behavior. Had other chores that came first and
since it's turned colder again had to wait for block heater on the
tractor to get it going so just did. Had to make a pit stop so heated a
cup o' coffee before heading back out after getting chainsaw going that
need to take down some crags still hanging on corral fences...
From your description it seems like the only thing that was
manipulated was the VR. If that's the case then maybe therte's a bad
wire that connects to the VR and that the bad spot is most likely
between the VR and where the wire enters the wire bundle. Maybe a
break in the in the wire inside the insulation right where it is
connected the the VR. I've seen that before. Maybe you can put a meter
on the battery terminals and wiggle the wires to see if the voltage
rises above the battery voltage.
Eric
c***@snyder.on.ca
2017-02-02 02:20:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
Post by Tim Wescott
Post by dpb
...
Post by Tim Wescott
I'd check that the regulator is making good electrical contact to
whatever it's bolted to, and that the panel it's bolted to is making
good electrical contact to the engine block. ...
As typical for the vintage, the VR is bolted to the firewall and it's
clean connections there; checked/shined up when replaced. It is a good
point that I didn't actually double-check the firewall to the chassis
ground, though...
Thanks, and see above re: alternator. But, while the alternator has
replaced the generator, it's worked for almost 60 year so not _too_
shabby! :) As the other note also says, I'm down to also thinking
there's a wiring fault somewhere; that's going to be some effort to work
through as after 4-5" from the regulator they all go into a wrapped
harness to come out who knows where on the other end? :)
If there's no radio then there's not much in that vintage of truck that
would stop working if the cab to chassis ground blinked out. I'm not
entirely sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if the ignition didn't have
its own ground return.
No, no radio. Back then, KS tax code said a radio meant "pleasure
vehicle" not farm so wasn't tax exempt in that case. Hence, nobody put
radios in trucks when new (and Dad never added one to any of them so
still without). :)
Post by Tim Wescott
I'm thinking that a wire is broken inside the insulation because it's
(A), consistent with your problem, and (B) not at all visible unless
you're looking for it. My second guess is a prior repair gone wrong.
But I could be completely wrong -- reality isn't good at listening to
theorists, sometimes.
Unusual old truck; it's never needed a repair in its lifetime other than
I did redo the brakes from vacuum booster to main to wheel cylinders
about 10 yr ago. Outside that, normal maintenance has been the extent
of work done on it...
Post by Tim Wescott
Fortunately, if you catch it when it's persistently not working (like
now, it seems), then just continuity checks of the pertinent wires should
be enough -- after the ground there's what, one wire from generator to
battery, one from battery to regulator, and two from generator to
regulator? If you have a decent wiring diagram and a VOM (or even a bulb
and battery), you should be set for the test.
Excepting when just went out and cranked 'er up, was charging again just
like new...then did flake back out though, but it's definitely now
intermittent even if more "off" than "on".
Post by Tim Wescott
If you'd rather, go looking at all the likely spots for a broken wire.
If the wire _is_ broken inside the insulation, you'll be able to feel it
quick enough when you wiggle the wire. If it's just too flexible in
exactly one spot, you've found the problem. I'd also look for old
splices as a potential source of problems -- a lump in a wrapped-over bit
of the harness is a good indicator, as is a wire with insulation that
doesn't match the rest of the truck.
Not knowing your truck I can only guess, but the most likely spot for a
problem is where there's a lot of flex, which would either be at a
termination (but the wire would be all the way broken, then), where a
wire goes through a grommet, or where a wire goes into one of those
harnesses.
I do have an electrical diagram but not much relationship to harness and
routing. But, yes, it is pretty limited amount; just that on the top
end as say they all go into that one harness from the VR with 3-4" and
haven't worked as yet to try to get to the other end of them.
Unfortunately, the harnesses are prior to the split loom; they're all
solidly factory-wrapped so there is no checking individual wires within
physically without tearing them apart; it'll have to be continuity
checks when get the time to do so...
Anyways, the thoughts confirm conclusion I'd come to, particularly now
that I've seen today's behavior. Had other chores that came first and
since it's turned colder again had to wait for block heater on the
tractor to get it going so just did. Had to make a pit stop so heated a
cup o' coffee before heading back out after getting chainsaw going that
need to take down some crags still hanging on corral fences...
Coming in late on the subject here, but have you bypassed the
regulator to see if it charges?
Just ground the feild terminal with the engine running and see if it
charges. If it charges when grounded and not when not grounded, the
voltage regulator section of the 3 unit regulator is not functioning.
If it still doesn't charge it is a generator problem (or primary
wiiring between the battery and generator - or the cut-out section of
the regulator. or the current regulator section. Isolate this by
momentarily jumping from the Gen terminal to the BAT terminal on the
regulator. Make sure you do NOT ground anything with the jumper!!!
(and ONLY do this with the engine running.) If it charges, the
regulator is bad..

Not out of the ordinary on an old working truck to have an
intermittent field control resistor (there are generally 3 of them
inside the regulator, generally on the back, exposed to the
atmosphere.. Also not out of the ordinary for a problem to develop in
the cut-out relay - burned points in particular.

Also, at that age, not a stretch to have worn out brushes in the
generator, or a glazed commutator or even a broken brush spring - all
of which can cause an intermittent charge. On a truck that is only
used very intermittently and sits in farm dirt the rest of the time
the brushes would be prime suspects (if grounding the field makes it
charge, that's where to look!!!)
DoN. Nichols
2017-02-02 02:44:52 UTC
Permalink
[ ... ]
Post by dpb
Post by Tim Wescott
Not knowing your truck I can only guess, but the most likely spot for a
problem is where there's a lot of flex, which would either be at a
termination (but the wire would be all the way broken, then), where a
wire goes through a grommet, or where a wire goes into one of those
harnesses.
I do have an electrical diagram but not much relationship to harness and
routing. But, yes, it is pretty limited amount; just that on the top
end as say they all go into that one harness from the VR with 3-4" and
haven't worked as yet to try to get to the other end of them.
Unfortunately, the harnesses are prior to the split loom; they're all
solidly factory-wrapped so there is no checking individual wires within
physically without tearing them apart; it'll have to be continuity
checks when get the time to do so...
You could simply run new wires for the few that matter here, and
use nylon cable ties to secure them to the outside of the wiring
harness. A lot easier than trying to dig them out of the harness. Just
make sure that the gauge of the wire is at least as large as what is
being replaced. The generator-to-battery is likely the heaviest one.

Does the generator have a separate ground lead, or is it
depending on the chassis to carry the ground? Perhaps rust where the
generator bolts to the engine block might produce an intermittent like
what you have.
Post by dpb
Anyways, the thoughts confirm conclusion I'd come to, particularly now
that I've seen today's behavior.
Also -- new wires on the outside of the harness would be easier
in cold weather.

I did rebuild a generator in an MGA once, including replacing the
bushing at the commutator end. Factory manual advised threading a tap
into the bushing to jack the old one out, and then pressing in a
replacement. The pulley end had a ball bearing assembly, since the
lateral load was greater.

Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: <***@d-and-d.com> | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Tim Wescott
2017-02-02 20:52:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by DoN. Nichols
[ ... ]
Post by dpb
Post by Tim Wescott
Not knowing your truck I can only guess, but the most likely spot for
a problem is where there's a lot of flex, which would either be at a
termination (but the wire would be all the way broken, then), where a
wire goes through a grommet, or where a wire goes into one of those
harnesses.
I do have an electrical diagram but not much relationship to harness
and routing. But, yes, it is pretty limited amount; just that on the
top end as say they all go into that one harness from the VR with 3-4"
and haven't worked as yet to try to get to the other end of them.
Unfortunately, the harnesses are prior to the split loom; they're all
solidly factory-wrapped so there is no checking individual wires within
physically without tearing them apart; it'll have to be continuity
checks when get the time to do so...
You could simply run new wires for the few that matter here, and
use nylon cable ties to secure them to the outside of the wiring
harness. A lot easier than trying to dig them out of the harness. Just
make sure that the gauge of the wire is at least as large as what is
being replaced. The generator-to-battery is likely the heaviest one.
+1.
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

I'm looking for work -- see my website!
Larry Jaques
2017-02-02 00:58:14 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 01 Feb 2017 13:04:21 -0600, Tim Wescott
Post by Tim Wescott
Post by dpb
The sidebar on tach's made me realize there's a lot of knowledge here...
Patient: Old (1958) Chebby C60 grain truck, 283ci V8, 12V system,
3-terminal external regulator.
Symptom: Quit charging suddenly.
Diagnostics to date: Pulled Field terminal from regulator, jump to
ground and show good output voltage/current from generator. So
generator is working.
Action: Replaced regulator, set field polarity by jumping from BAT to
FLD, restart and VOILA! charging just fine. Took for short test run,
seemed perfectly normal. Thought done.
Am using at moment for hauling limbs from trees downed by our ice storm
of a week ago last Sunday...have run out of room on the place so been
hauling to the city burn pile, hence decided ought to check on running
lights, etc., etc., ... so, after the above return to house, turned on
lights and did a walk-around to check lights (all working but RR bed
running lamp, btw, sorta' a shock :) ). Turned off lights, truck to
check on ground and bulb and whatever for that light. When opened
access went back and restarted truck. No chargie any longer, identical
symptoms as to before installing the new regulator. :( Just for grins
redid the polarity jump; got good spark, but no joy...
I'm now at a loss for cause here...anybody got ideas?
OBTW, the battery holds charge well and will recharge fine on the
charger after running all day without getting charged but that's kinda'
annoying to have to deal with...
I'm NOT an expert on this, but it sounds like there's a problem in the
wiring that's taking out the regulator, or perhaps the regulator was fine
all along and there's an intermittent connection or a broken wire.
Y'mean the shotgun didn't work? <giggle> I've seen guys spend
hundreds of dollars DIY and still not fix the problem. When they
brought it in, there was something simple like a break in the wire AT
the terminal but still connected via the plastic cover. Depending on
how smug they still were, I'd either do it N/C (humbled) or ding 'em
for the minimum 1-hour fee (smug). Other 'magic' included tapping on
the regulator housing with a screwdriver handle to verify the problem
and free up the stuck points.
Post by Tim Wescott
I'd check that the regulator is making good electrical contact to
whatever it's bolted to, and that the panel it's bolted to is making good
electrical contact to the engine block. I'd check that the generator is
also making good electrical contact to the engine block. I'd check that
the connections to the regulator and to the generator are solid. I'd
check that the wire terminations are solid (although if these broke
they'd probably be hanging). I'd check that none of the wires has a
break inside the insulation (which would make for a nasty intermittent
fault that very well might be temporarily cleared by you messing around
with the wiring as you replaced the regulator).
Good advice. I'd also check the points in the new regulator. I hope
dpb has a point burnisher. My buddy Terry (Baird Gamma Camera repair)
had a nice one from way back: http://tinyurl.com/hz9oth5 But you can
get one for $11.20 on eBay now: http://tinyurl.com/hx7jgsw

Common problems occur at connections to gen, reg, and ammeter. Heavy
leads to the un-shunted ammeter in old vehicles have a tendency to
loosen oven time. Eons ago, I used to get people complaining about
smelling smoke or burnt wires inside their vehicles, which was usually
from loose 12ga terminals on headlight switches, dimmer switches,
ammeters, or htr/ac fans.
Post by Tim Wescott
If you use the truck much you'll probably find more joy by replacing the
generator with an alternator. The new one-wire alternators are easy-peasy
to hook up; you just need the right bracket. I'm pretty sure that a late
60's bracket would bolt onto your motor and take a new alternator, but I
couldn't speak for anything later than that. If you undertake to remove
all of the old, no-longer pertinent wiring as you go, you'll probably
clear any of my suspected faults that I list above.
Yeah, he could do that, but if it ain't broke...oops, that doesn't
work here. I prefer simplicity and gen/reg systems usually are.

-
"Surprisingly, open-minded Hollywood has not yet agreed to allow
unvetted refugees to mill freely about their heavily guarded film
studios." --Twitter satirist @weknowwhatsbest
Michael A. Terrell
2017-02-16 21:36:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Jaques
On Wed, 01 Feb 2017 13:04:21 -0600, Tim Wescott
Post by Tim Wescott
Post by dpb
The sidebar on tach's made me realize there's a lot of knowledge here...
Patient: Old (1958) Chebby C60 grain truck, 283ci V8, 12V system,
3-terminal external regulator.
Symptom: Quit charging suddenly.
Diagnostics to date: Pulled Field terminal from regulator, jump to
ground and show good output voltage/current from generator. So
generator is working.
Action: Replaced regulator, set field polarity by jumping from BAT to
FLD, restart and VOILA! charging just fine. Took for short test run,
seemed perfectly normal. Thought done.
Am using at moment for hauling limbs from trees downed by our ice storm
of a week ago last Sunday...have run out of room on the place so been
hauling to the city burn pile, hence decided ought to check on running
lights, etc., etc., ... so, after the above return to house, turned on
lights and did a walk-around to check lights (all working but RR bed
running lamp, btw, sorta' a shock :) ). Turned off lights, truck to
check on ground and bulb and whatever for that light. When opened
access went back and restarted truck. No chargie any longer, identical
symptoms as to before installing the new regulator. :( Just for grins
redid the polarity jump; got good spark, but no joy...
I'm now at a loss for cause here...anybody got ideas?
OBTW, the battery holds charge well and will recharge fine on the
charger after running all day without getting charged but that's kinda'
annoying to have to deal with...
I'm NOT an expert on this, but it sounds like there's a problem in the
wiring that's taking out the regulator, or perhaps the regulator was fine
all along and there's an intermittent connection or a broken wire.
Y'mean the shotgun didn't work? <giggle> I've seen guys spend
hundreds of dollars DIY and still not fix the problem. When they
brought it in, there was something simple like a break in the wire AT
the terminal but still connected via the plastic cover. Depending on
how smug they still were, I'd either do it N/C (humbled) or ding 'em
for the minimum 1-hour fee (smug). Other 'magic' included tapping on
the regulator housing with a screwdriver handle to verify the problem
and free up the stuck points.
Post by Tim Wescott
I'd check that the regulator is making good electrical contact to
whatever it's bolted to, and that the panel it's bolted to is making good
electrical contact to the engine block. I'd check that the generator is
also making good electrical contact to the engine block. I'd check that
the connections to the regulator and to the generator are solid. I'd
check that the wire terminations are solid (although if these broke
they'd probably be hanging). I'd check that none of the wires has a
break inside the insulation (which would make for a nasty intermittent
fault that very well might be temporarily cleared by you messing around
with the wiring as you replaced the regulator).
Good advice. I'd also check the points in the new regulator. I hope
dpb has a point burnisher. My buddy Terry (Baird Gamma Camera repair)
had a nice one from way back: http://tinyurl.com/hz9oth5 But you can
get one for $11.20 on eBay now: http://tinyurl.com/hx7jgsw
Common problems occur at connections to gen, reg, and ammeter. Heavy
leads to the un-shunted ammeter in old vehicles have a tendency to
loosen oven time. Eons ago, I used to get people complaining about
smelling smoke or burnt wires inside their vehicles, which was usually
from loose 12ga terminals on headlight switches, dimmer switches,
ammeters, or htr/ac fans.
Post by Tim Wescott
If you use the truck much you'll probably find more joy by replacing the
generator with an alternator. The new one-wire alternators are easy-peasy
to hook up; you just need the right bracket. I'm pretty sure that a late
60's bracket would bolt onto your motor and take a new alternator, but I
couldn't speak for anything later than that. If you undertake to remove
all of the old, no-longer pertinent wiring as you go, you'll probably
clear any of my suspected faults that I list above.
Yeah, he could do that, but if it ain't broke...oops, that doesn't
work here. I prefer simplicity and gen/reg systems usually are.
Didn't some of those old vehicles stop charging if the idiot lamp
was bad? I've seen more than one of those bulbs that was intermittent.
--
Never piss off an Engineer!

They don't get mad.

They don't get even.

They go for over unity! ;-)
Steve W.
2017-02-02 00:56:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by dpb
The sidebar on tach's made me realize there's a lot of knowledge here...
Patient: Old (1958) Chebby C60 grain truck, 283ci V8, 12V system,
3-terminal external regulator.
Symptom: Quit charging suddenly.
Diagnostics to date: Pulled Field terminal from regulator, jump to
ground and show good output voltage/current from generator. So
generator is working.
Action: Replaced regulator, set field polarity by jumping from BAT to
FLD, restart and VOILA! charging just fine. Took for short test run,
seemed perfectly normal. Thought done.
Am using at moment for hauling limbs from trees downed by our ice storm
of a week ago last Sunday...have run out of room on the place so been
hauling to the city burn pile, hence decided ought to check on running
lights, etc., etc., ... so, after the above return to house, turned on
lights and did a walk-around to check lights (all working but RR bed
running lamp, btw, sorta' a shock :) ). Turned off lights, truck to
check on ground and bulb and whatever for that light. When opened
access went back and restarted truck. No chargie any longer, identical
symptoms as to before installing the new regulator. :( Just for grins
redid the polarity jump; got good spark, but no joy...
I'm now at a loss for cause here...anybody got ideas?
OBTW, the battery holds charge well and will recharge fine on the
charger after running all day without getting charged but that's kinda'
annoying to have to deal with...
--
Well at the risk of making it a bit more cluttered under the hood.
Bypass the entire truck wiring harness.
On the generator run a wire from the F terminal on the generator to the
field terminal on the regulator.

Same with Gen terminal to A terminal

Then a wire from the Bat terminal to the positive side of the battery
through an ammeter.

Run a ground wire from the regulator to the engine block.

The book on regulators and testing.
http://www.navioneer.org/riprelay/The%20Navion%20Files/Delco_Remy_Generator_Regulators.pdf
--
Steve W.
Ignoramus32123
2017-02-02 14:01:15 UTC
Permalink
Maybe your idiot light bulb is burned out? FLD is supposed to be wired
through what they call idiot bulb, kind of a silly name.

I have a couple of forklifts of similar vintage with Detroits, always
problems with alternators charging.

The easiest I found is to just buy new ones. Delco 10-si replacements
made for slow speed operation.

i
e***@gmail.com
2017-02-02 14:30:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ignoramus32123
Maybe your idiot light bulb is burned out? FLD is supposed to be wired
through what they call idiot bulb, kind of a silly name.
I'm guessing you know where it comes from. Competent drivers pay attention to gauges. Idiots rely on lights, which tell you, for example, that your engine just lost its oil pressure and that you just burned it up.

They tend to tell you what just happened, rather than what is happening.
--
Ed Huntress
Post by Ignoramus32123
I have a couple of forklifts of similar vintage with Detroits, always
problems with alternators charging.
The easiest I found is to just buy new ones. Delco 10-si replacements
made for slow speed operation.
i
Larry Jaques
2017-02-02 14:42:13 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 08:01:15 -0600, Ignoramus32123
Post by Ignoramus32123
Maybe your idiot light bulb is burned out? FLD is supposed to be wired
through what they call idiot bulb, kind of a silly name.
Ig, "idiot lights" got their nickname because by the time they come
on, the damage is already done. "Check Engine" lights mean that the
engine has been run without oil or water and is now fried.

-
"Surprisingly, open-minded Hollywood has not yet agreed to allow
unvetted refugees to mill freely about their heavily guarded film
studios." --Twitter satirist @weknowwhatsbest
Ignoramus32123
2017-02-02 14:57:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Jaques
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 08:01:15 -0600, Ignoramus32123
Post by Ignoramus32123
Maybe your idiot light bulb is burned out? FLD is supposed to be wired
through what they call idiot bulb, kind of a silly name.
Ig, "idiot lights" got their nickname because by the time they come
on, the damage is already done. "Check Engine" lights mean that the
engine has been run without oil or water and is now fried.
-
"Surprisingly, open-minded Hollywood has not yet agreed to allow
unvetted refugees to mill freely about their heavily guarded film
I was referring to a bulb that is wired in series with the field
winding of the alternator.

i
c***@snyder.on.ca
2017-02-02 21:49:32 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 08:57:31 -0600, Ignoramus32123
Post by Ignoramus32123
Post by Larry Jaques
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 08:01:15 -0600, Ignoramus32123
Post by Ignoramus32123
Maybe your idiot light bulb is burned out? FLD is supposed to be wired
through what they call idiot bulb, kind of a silly name.
Ig, "idiot lights" got their nickname because by the time they come
on, the damage is already done. "Check Engine" lights mean that the
engine has been run without oil or water and is now fried.
-
"Surprisingly, open-minded Hollywood has not yet agreed to allow
unvetted refugees to mill freely about their heavily guarded film
I was referring to a bulb that is wired in series with the field
winding of the alternator.
i
It's not in series with the feild - it is generally in the "sense"
circuit - between the output of the "trio" diode and the barttery.
When charging there is 12-14 volts on both sides of the bulb so it
goes out.
Ignoramus32123
2017-02-02 22:59:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@snyder.on.ca
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 08:57:31 -0600, Ignoramus32123
Post by Ignoramus32123
Post by Larry Jaques
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 08:01:15 -0600, Ignoramus32123
Post by Ignoramus32123
Maybe your idiot light bulb is burned out? FLD is supposed to be wired
through what they call idiot bulb, kind of a silly name.
Ig, "idiot lights" got their nickname because by the time they come
on, the damage is already done. "Check Engine" lights mean that the
engine has been run without oil or water and is now fried.
-
"Surprisingly, open-minded Hollywood has not yet agreed to allow
unvetted refugees to mill freely about their heavily guarded film
I was referring to a bulb that is wired in series with the field
winding of the alternator.
i
It's not in series with the feild - it is generally in the "sense"
circuit - between the output of the "trio" diode and the barttery.
When charging there is 12-14 volts on both sides of the bulb so it
goes out.
I do not think so, it is for field. That's why you wire it with the
key. The sense can be left connected to the battery, it does not use current.
c***@snyder.on.ca
2017-02-03 01:08:24 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 16:59:28 -0600, Ignoramus32123
Post by Ignoramus32123
Post by c***@snyder.on.ca
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 08:57:31 -0600, Ignoramus32123
Post by Ignoramus32123
Post by Larry Jaques
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 08:01:15 -0600, Ignoramus32123
Post by Ignoramus32123
Maybe your idiot light bulb is burned out? FLD is supposed to be wired
through what they call idiot bulb, kind of a silly name.
Ig, "idiot lights" got their nickname because by the time they come
on, the damage is already done. "Check Engine" lights mean that the
engine has been run without oil or water and is now fried.
-
"Surprisingly, open-minded Hollywood has not yet agreed to allow
unvetted refugees to mill freely about their heavily guarded film
I was referring to a bulb that is wired in series with the field
winding of the alternator.
i
It's not in series with the feild - it is generally in the "sense"
circuit - between the output of the "trio" diode and the barttery.
When charging there is 12-14 volts on both sides of the bulb so it
goes out.
I do not think so, it is for field. That's why you wire it with the
key. The sense can be left connected to the battery, it does not use current.
Trust me, the bulb won't carry NEAR enough current to run the field.
It's on the ignition to put 12 volts on one side of the bulb while the
other side is at ground potential through the alternator - when it
starts to charge the alternator side is also at 12 volts and the light
goes out. I wrenched professionaly since 1969 and I saw a LOT of
charge indicator lights. On SOME alternators the voltage through the
bulb "kick starts" the field (on externally grounded fields) by
supplying a "tickle current" to the alternator to energize the field
just enough to get the alternator charging enough to power the field..
On those rare vehicles, a blown indicator bulb can make the alternator
not charge untill you get up to a pretty high speed (if at all).
Unlike generators, most alternators do not have "residual magnetism"
in the field to bootstrap the charge.
Larry Jaques
2017-02-03 02:21:27 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 08:57:31 -0600, Ignoramus32123
Post by Ignoramus32123
Post by Larry Jaques
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 08:01:15 -0600, Ignoramus32123
Post by Ignoramus32123
Maybe your idiot light bulb is burned out? FLD is supposed to be wired
through what they call idiot bulb, kind of a silly name.
Ig, "idiot lights" got their nickname because by the time they come
on, the damage is already done. "Check Engine" lights mean that the
engine has been run without oil or water and is now fried.
-
"Surprisingly, open-minded Hollywood has not yet agreed to allow
unvetted refugees to mill freely about their heavily guarded film
I was referring to a bulb that is wired in series with the field
winding of the alternator.
Yes, I know, and that's a very rare system which uses that style.

-
"Surprisingly, open-minded Hollywood has not yet agreed to allow
unvetted refugees to mill freely about their heavily guarded film
studios." --Twitter satirist @weknowwhatsbest
c***@snyder.on.ca
2017-02-03 02:53:56 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 18:21:27 -0800, Larry Jaques
Post by c***@snyder.on.ca
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 08:57:31 -0600, Ignoramus32123
Post by Ignoramus32123
Post by Larry Jaques
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 08:01:15 -0600, Ignoramus32123
Post by Ignoramus32123
Maybe your idiot light bulb is burned out? FLD is supposed to be wired
through what they call idiot bulb, kind of a silly name.
Ig, "idiot lights" got their nickname because by the time they come
on, the damage is already done. "Check Engine" lights mean that the
engine has been run without oil or water and is now fried.
-
"Surprisingly, open-minded Hollywood has not yet agreed to allow
unvetted refugees to mill freely about their heavily guarded film
I was referring to a bulb that is wired in series with the field
winding of the alternator.
Yes, I know, and that's a very rare system which uses that style.
-
"Surprisingly, open-minded Hollywood has not yet agreed to allow
unvetted refugees to mill freely about their heavily guarded film
Also the VAST majority of vehicles with factory ammeters don'y have
"idiot lights" for the charging system. Mid 50s Chevys were available
both ways - but I don't remember any with both from the factory.
Larry Jaques
2017-02-03 15:09:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@snyder.on.ca
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 18:21:27 -0800, Larry Jaques
Post by c***@snyder.on.ca
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 08:57:31 -0600, Ignoramus32123
Post by Ignoramus32123
Post by Larry Jaques
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 08:01:15 -0600, Ignoramus32123
Post by Ignoramus32123
Maybe your idiot light bulb is burned out? FLD is supposed to be wired
through what they call idiot bulb, kind of a silly name.
Ig, "idiot lights" got their nickname because by the time they come
on, the damage is already done. "Check Engine" lights mean that the
engine has been run without oil or water and is now fried.
I was referring to a bulb that is wired in series with the field
winding of the alternator.
Yes, I know, and that's a very rare system which uses that style.
Also the VAST majority of vehicles with factory ammeters don'y have
"idiot lights" for the charging system. Mid 50s Chevys were available
both ways - but I don't remember any with both from the factory.
Right. Part of that "idiot" moniker was hinting that if you weren't
smart enough to read an ammeter, you needed an idiot light to let you
know when something went wrong. It fits, what, 85% of drivers? <sigh>

-
"Surprisingly, open-minded Hollywood has not yet agreed to allow
unvetted refugees to mill freely about their heavily guarded film
studios." --Twitter satirist @weknowwhatsbest
dpb
2017-02-02 19:16:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ignoramus32123
Maybe your idiot light bulb is burned out? FLD is supposed to be wired
through what they call idiot bulb, kind of a silly name.
No bulb, actual ammeter w/ analog needle...this is '58 vintage...
Post by Ignoramus32123
I have a couple of forklifts of similar vintage with Detroits, always
problems with alternators charging.
The easiest I found is to just buy new ones. Delco 10-si replacements
made for slow speed operation.
'Tis generator, not alternator, and it's not the problem...it's quite
healthy.
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