Discussion:
Tapered Pins
(too old to reply)
Bob La Londe
2024-07-19 23:17:23 UTC
Permalink
.. of course I can make my own but for a one off project, but for a
repeat stock job I would like to buy them premade.


I'm cutting a mold for somebody that casts a body with a through hole.
There are nominal dimensions, but a tapered pin that knocks out easily
would be acceptable. I can buy "standard" tapered pins and "standard"
tapered reamers, but when I was trying to spec it out it seems the pins
are available in sizes ranging down much smaller than the small end of
the reamer. Or in other words, "WHAT?!?"

I went ahead and bought a couple sizes of pins that would be suitable
for the casting, and a 0-10 set of tapered reamers. I don't know how
its going to work out, but I figure if worse comes to worse maybe I can
make a tapered D-Bit reamer that actually matches the pins.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jim Wilkins
2024-07-20 00:46:02 UTC
Permalink
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:v7es63$36jm2$***@dont-email.me...

.. of course I can make my own but for a one off project, but for a
repeat stock job I would like to buy them premade.


I'm cutting a mold for somebody that casts a body with a through hole.
There are nominal dimensions, but a tapered pin that knocks out easily
would be acceptable. I can buy "standard" tapered pins and "standard"
tapered reamers, but when I was trying to spec it out it seems the pins
are available in sizes ranging down much smaller than the small end of
the reamer. Or in other words, "WHAT?!?"

I went ahead and bought a couple sizes of pins that would be suitable
for the casting, and a 0-10 set of tapered reamers. I don't know how
its going to work out, but I figure if worse comes to worse maybe I can
make a tapered D-Bit reamer that actually matches the pins.

Bob La Londe

----------------------------------

South Bend used taper pins on my lathe, some of which didn't survive the
students' abuse. I acquired some spare parts which had been drilled
differently for the taper pins. It seemed to me the idea was to ream by
hand, tap in the pin and then cut off the excess.
pyotr filipivich
2024-07-20 16:00:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
South Bend used taper pins on my lathe, some of which didn't survive the
students' abuse. I acquired some spare parts which had been drilled
differently for the taper pins. It seemed to me the idea was to ream by
hand, tap in the pin and then cut off the excess.
I still have a batch of brass taper pins made for the class
machines. Brass shears off and protects the machine - at leas that is
the theory
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."
Bob La Londe
2024-07-20 22:27:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Jim Wilkins
South Bend used taper pins on my lathe, some of which didn't survive the
students' abuse. I acquired some spare parts which had been drilled
differently for the taper pins. It seemed to me the idea was to ream by
hand, tap in the pin and then cut off the excess.
I still have a batch of brass taper pins made for the class
machines. Brass shears off and protects the machine - at leas that is
the theory
The thing is there really isn't any point to having stock size taper
pins available more than minimally longer than you can ream. I was
excited to see a couple pins available that might fit my application
only to find I would have to create my own tool to ream the holes. I
can make my own tools, but it takes a lot of time.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Bob La Londe
2024-07-22 18:44:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob La Londe
Post by Jim Wilkins
South Bend used taper pins on my lathe, some of which didn't survive the
students' abuse. I acquired some spare parts which had been drilled
differently for the taper pins.  It seemed to me the idea was to ream by
hand, tap in the pin and then cut off the excess.
    I still have a batch of brass taper pins made for the class
machines.  Brass shears off and protects the machine - at leas that is
the theory
The thing is there really isn't any point to having stock size taper
pins available more than minimally longer than you can ream.  I was
excited to see a couple pins available that might fit my application
only to find I would have to create my own tool to ream the holes.  I
can make my own tools, but it takes a lot of time.
I'm an idiot. Since the taper is the same 1:50 for inch tapers and 1:48
for metric tapers of all "standard" taper pins I can just use an "off"
size reamer to finish out the hole. Doh!
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jim Wilkins
2024-07-23 13:15:36 UTC
Permalink
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:v7m99o$p65m$***@dont-email.me...

I'm an idiot. Since the taper is the same 1:50 for inch tapers and 1:48
for metric tapers of all "standard" taper pins I can just use an "off"
size reamer to finish out the hole. Doh!
--
Bob La Londe
-----------------------------------------

I didn't suggest following with a second smaller reamer because I couldn't
think of a way to ensure it aligned with the first radially and axially, the
necessary extended shank could let it wander and there's no easy way to know
when to stop. I'd ream to position the large head of the pin relative to the
surface, cut off the small end and bin it for later. For a small pin in a
deep hole I'd use a dowel or roll pin instead.

Hammerlock chain links have another way to retain a pin. It's turned smaller
in the center and passes through a nested pair of large split roll pins with
their slots opposed. They expand to let the end pass, then shrink onto the
smaller center. Unlike shackles one end is no larger than the bow and fits
into chain links. The pin is fairly easy to hammer or squeeze in and punch
out.
https://www.riggingwarehouse.com/rw-lifting-rigging-hardware/rw-connection-repair-links/rw-hammerlocks.html

This is the preferred fitting to splice one chain to another, hammerlocks
are wider to accept multiple chains for slings.
https://www.etrailer.com/Accessories-and-Parts/Titan~Chain/TCML13.html?feed=npn&gad_source=1

I had to go beyond hardware store G30 chain to a logging equipment supplier
to upgrade my hoisting gear for the heavy logs.

The drill press vise would be for the mill, to hold large but light
material, mainly sheet metal for electronic control panels etc, plus give
more badly needed working space under the spindle for upright jobs like 5C
collet blocks. My Clausing 8525 mill is the early version without the column
riser block. I had to remove the hard jaws to clamp 6 squares of 5" wide 14
ga steel for a hole saw, and wider steel would have been better for hoist
baseplates. At Unitrode I replaced a worn-out drill press with an RF-31
mill drill and bought an 18 lb 6" drill press vise for it instead of a 70+
lb milling vise that could crush a foot. Machine work for electronics is
mainly on aluminum sheet and light extrusions, and no one wears steel toe
boots.
Bob La Londe
2024-07-23 18:56:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
I didn't suggest following with a second smaller reamer because I
couldn't think of a way to ensure it aligned with the first radially and
axially, the necessary extended shank could let it wander and there's no
easy way to know when to stop.
Milling machine does a fair job with alignment as long as you don't move
anything. The reamer will follow the existing hole.

There is a saying, "Drill fast, bore straight, ream to size." Somebody
else must have said it first, but I've never heard anybody else say it
exactly that way. For now I am the guy who said that saying until
somebody tells me different.

It's a mold so depth is easy to find. Just open the mold and look. The
pin slot was already 3D machined fairly accurately. 0+ to -.001 or
better anywhere along the slot. The reamer(s) just needs to kiss the
hole to make it a smidgen smoother. Its a lead casting mold so as long
as the pin sets at "about" the right position castings will come out
fine. You don't get flashing with upto .004-005 gaps unless the mold
and lead are overheated. I vent .0015 to .003 every day without issues
on gravity casting lead molds. (Resins and injection have their own set
of issues and tolerances.)

I have already tested fit without reamer cleanup and it "would work" as
is. I'd just like it to set set a little deeper for ease of dropping in
the pin. I think just kissing off the machine marks from the original
3D op will be just right.

I'd ream to position the large head of
Post by Jim Wilkins
the pin relative to the surface, cut off the small end and bin it for
later. For a small pin in a deep hole I'd use a dowel or roll pin instead.
A straight pin would work, but the customer wants a taper pin because it
will theoretically knock out easier. It will. With a straight pin you
have to DRAG the pin out of the casting for the entire length. With a
taper pin a light tap with a soft face hammer and it just falls out.

***
I'm cutting a mold for somebody that casts a body with a through hole.
There are nominal dimensions, but a tapered pin that knocks out easily
would be acceptable.
***

I may not have done an adequate job of describing the application. The
taper pin is not for "joining" or "aligning." Its to be used as a
removable core.

FYI: I make similar casting molds all the time with straight pin cores,
and they work just fine. They do require more effort to remove, but
they work just fine. In this case its a custom mold, the customer has
no experience with lead casting, and they are a bit OCD. Its easier to
charge them for the work than to argue with them and it needlessly burns
less of my time.

Similar mold I make with straight pins larger and longer than the custom
mold above.
https://www.cncmolds.com/webstore/lead-casting-molds/weights-lead-line-for-nets/ten-count/weight-net-sinker-1/4-pin-4-cavity
Post by Jim Wilkins
Hammerlock chain links have another way to retain a pin. It's turned
smaller in the center and passes through a nested pair of large split
roll pins with their slots opposed. They expand to let the end pass,
then shrink onto the smaller center. Unlike shackles one end is no
larger than the bow and fits into chain links. The pin is fairly easy to
hammer or squeeze in and punch out.
https://www.riggingwarehouse.com/rw-lifting-rigging-hardware/rw-connection-repair-links/rw-hammerlocks.html
This is the preferred fitting to splice one chain to another,
hammerlocks are wider to accept multiple chains for slings.
https://www.etrailer.com/Accessories-and-Parts/Titan~Chain/TCML13.html?feed=npn&gad_source=1
I had to go beyond hardware store G30 chain to a logging equipment
supplier to upgrade my hoisting gear for the heavy logs.
The drill press vise would be for the mill, to hold large but light
material, mainly sheet metal for electronic control panels etc, plus
give more badly needed working space under the spindle for upright jobs
like 5C collet blocks.
Did you look a the slide lock vise? I have actually thought about
making a second one to go on the South Bend mill. In a t-slot table the
clamping screw for the split block could also lock it to the table with
a t-nut making all adjustment and movement fast and easy from the top of
the table. When I don't need it I can just loosen the knob and slide it
out of the way.

I don't know how flimsy of material you plan to drill, but anything
heavy enough to not buckle when clamped in a vise works in the step jaw
just fine. I drill aluminum sheet as thin as .080 as needed. depending
on the alloy could go thinner. Much thinner and I use double stick tape
or painters tape and super glue to a backer. The sacrificial backer
would then clamp up in the vise just fine. They are small. but there is
a vertical groove and a horizontal groove milled in the moving jaw of
the vise for round stock, and there is no reason I couldn't use a 5C
collet block in it either.

For reference. I once made a fixture for milling paper. Plane old
ordinary .003 thick printer paper. Talked about it on this group. I
used it to create neatly printed custom button labels for a hybrid phone
system back when I was still contracting.
Post by Jim Wilkins
My Clausing 8525 mill is the early version
without the column riser block.
Its my understanding that riser blocks for mills were options. Not
included. You unbolt the head, lift it up, slap in the riser block, and
bolt it back together. I wouldn't mind an additional six inches on my
South Bend, but usually I can bolt on a right angle plate, and hang the
part off the table if I need to drill something longer than my Z
clearance. I have to swing the head to one side so the long part can
clear the knee, but its made to do that.

I had to remove the hard jaws to clamp 6
Post by Jim Wilkins
squares of 5" wide 14 ga steel for a hole saw, and wider steel would
have been better for hoist baseplates.  At Unitrode I replaced a
worn-out drill press with an RF-31 mill
I had an RF-31 for a while. I didn't get much use out of it, but I seem
to use my South Bend knee mill a lot. A true 5HP (Running on 7.5hp VFD)
spindle makes short work of some roughing and truing jobs even if I do
have to turn the handles.

drill and bought an 18 lb 6"
Post by Jim Wilkins
drill press vise for it instead of a 70+ lb milling vise that could
crush a foot. Machine work for electronics is mainly on aluminum sheet
and light extrusions, and no one wears steel toe boots.
The big advantage of the slide lock is it can't spin, its light weight,
and its easily removed or installed. Of course you can make it any size
you need.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jim Wilkins
2024-07-23 20:28:56 UTC
Permalink
...
***
I'm cutting a mold for somebody that casts a body with a through hole.
There are nominal dimensions, but a tapered pin that knocks out easily
would be acceptable.
***

I may not have done an adequate job of describing the application. The
taper pin is not for "joining" or "aligning." Its to be used as a
removable core.

---------------------
Thanks. I have to assume normal use unless otherwise specified. I enjoyed
the problem solving of custom machine design, repurposing what was available
to new uses.
Jim Wilkins
2024-07-23 20:57:00 UTC
Permalink
Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:v7oucg$1ajjv$***@dont-email.me...

On 7/23/2024 6:15 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
Did you look a the slide lock vise?

---------------------------------------
I have used one that I wasn’t all that impressed with, mainly for the
limited range and sensitivity of clamping forces. I drill and mill 0.030"
aluminum and clear plastic, usually over a wood backer it may or may not be
attached to, with tee slot clamp hold-downs as needed. An example is cutouts
for the rectangular panel meters I've mentioned. 0.030" is stiff enough
after being folded into a box.
Bob La Londe
2024-07-23 23:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob La Londe
Did you look a the slide lock vise?
---------------------------------------
I have used one that I wasn’t all that impressed with, mainly for the
limited range and sensitivity of clamping forces. I drill and mill
0.030" aluminum and clear plastic, usually over a wood backer it may or
may not be attached to, with tee slot clamp hold-downs as needed. An
example is cutouts for the rectangular panel meters I've mentioned.
0.030" is stiff enough after being folded into a box.
I had to use it a couple times before I got a feel for it. Now it just
stays on the drill press all the time. If it had a quick release jaw it
would be even better. Remember. You make it any way you need it. I
made the one I posted pictures of as a "universal", but I might make it
differently if I had a particular application for it. The biggest thing
I like about it is it almost totally eliminates any chance of the
spinning saw blade.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
pyotr filipivich
2024-07-21 23:25:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob La Londe
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Jim Wilkins
South Bend used taper pins on my lathe, some of which didn't survive the
students' abuse. I acquired some spare parts which had been drilled
differently for the taper pins. It seemed to me the idea was to ream by
hand, tap in the pin and then cut off the excess.
I still have a batch of brass taper pins made for the class
machines. Brass shears off and protects the machine - at leas that is
the theory
The thing is there really isn't any point to having stock size taper
pins available more than minimally longer than you can ream. I was
excited to see a couple pins available that might fit my application
only to find I would have to create my own tool to ream the holes. I
can make my own tools, but it takes a lot of time.
I know that feeling. Is what it would cost more or less than what
I would spend making one? And how soon do I need 'it'?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."
Jim Wilkins
2024-07-22 22:30:00 UTC
Permalink
"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...

I know that feeling. Is what it would cost more or less than what
I would spend making one? And how soon do I need 'it'?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."
----------------------------------------
I may make something once to see if I can, and perhaps note what I could buy
to help. A 6" drill press vise is on the list to consider, to hold sheet
metal panels to drill or mill. My mill's old Wilton vise holds 4", 5"
without the hardened jaws.

Right now there is a 20' long, originally 4500 Lb log on my sawmill, nearly
ready to saw off the 4th slab. I know now that I can do it but don't plan on
another. Much of my equipment needed upgrades to handle it.
Bob La Londe
2024-07-22 23:23:44 UTC
Permalink
I know that feeling.  Is what it would cost more or less than what
I would spend making one?  And how soon do I need 'it'?
I have 4 drill presses. Maybe 5 if you count the little mill/drill. I
rarely use any them anymore. Most drilling gets done with one of the
CNC Mills followed probably by a hand held drill motor these days. I
very rarely finish a tapped hole with a tapping head. However, do use
the floor drill press once in a while. Sometimes its just the fastest
and easiest way to waller out a hole in something. I've got a few drill
press vises, but tended to use a "CNC" mill vise more often as its much
heavier, and can be squared up on the table in any orientation.

A couple Christmas holidays ago my son and I made a slide lock drill
press vise and gave it to my dad for Christmas. As far as I know he
never used it. I did put it on his drill press once when I was out that
way, but there is no sign he ever used it. When I started cleaning out
his shop I brought it home and put it on my floor stand drill press.
Once you get a feel for how to use it (wish it had a faster screw) its a
pretty amazing device. I haven't used any other vise on that drill
press since. I machined two grooves and a step in the jaws. So far it
has worked for most everything I've drilled on that machine.

All of that being said for manual drilling I use the knee mill much more
often than I use a drill press. I might use it more if I put a slide
lock drill press vise on it too. LOL.

Loading Image...
Loading Image...
Loading Image...
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Bob La Londe
2024-07-22 23:38:37 UTC
Permalink
I know that feeling.  Is what it would cost more or less than what
I would spend making one?  And how soon do I need 'it'?
I have 4 drill presses.  Maybe 5 if you count the little mill/drill.  I
rarely use any them anymore.  Most drilling gets done with one of the
CNC Mills followed probably by a hand held drill motor these days.  I
very rarely finish a tapped hole with a tapping head.  However, do use
the floor drill press once in a while.  Sometimes its just the fastest
and easiest way to waller out a hole in something.  I've got a few drill
press vises, but tended to use a "CNC" mill vise more often as its much
heavier, and can be squared up on the table in any orientation.
A couple Christmas holidays ago my son and I made a slide lock drill
press vise and gave it to my dad for Christmas.  As far as I know he
never used it.  I did put it on his drill press once when I was out that
way, but there is no sign he ever used it.  When I started cleaning out
his shop I brought it home and put it on my floor stand drill press.
Once you get a feel for how to use it (wish it had a faster screw) its a
pretty amazing device.  I haven't used any other vise on that drill
press since.  I machined two grooves and a step in the jaws.  So far it
has worked for most everything I've drilled on that machine.
All of that being said for manual drilling I use the knee mill much more
often than I use a drill press.  I might use it more if I put a slide
lock drill press vise on it too.  LOL.
https://www.yumabassman.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/20240722_161219.jpg
https://www.yumabassman.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/20240722_161253.jpg
https://www.yumabassman.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/20240722_161324.jpg
One thing I would change is to set the bars and screw in the middle of
the split clamp instead of above center.

I have it set so it angles down towards the jaws slightly so when the
split clamp is tighten the bottom of the jaws put slight pressure on the
table.

Often when finding a hole with a punch mark, I'll put the drill in the
punch mark, and then tighten the split clamp.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jim Wilkins
2024-07-23 00:50:33 UTC
Permalink
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:v7mmiq$riap$***@dont-email.me...

Right now there is a 20' long, originally 4500 Lb log on my sawmill, nearly
ready to saw off the 4th slab. I know now that I can do it but don't plan on
another. Much of my equipment needed upgrades to handle it.

------------------------------------

This evening a wild rabbit watched me working on it from about 10' away.
Loading...