cordless tool 18V to 12V converter

[Richard Smith]

We covered like topic before - buck/boost.
Just need to "buck" - reduce voltage from 18V to 12V
In your opinions - small fitment going into battery "shoe" of 12V tool
adapting to fitting an 18V battery pack and having the "buck"
volts-to-amps trade - is viable?
They exist and are offered - eg. on Alibaba.

Want an SDS drill small enough to carry in a shoulder-bag through a mine
- but use existing 18V batteries - not expensive option of starting
stock of 12V batteries.
For drilling holes - 10mm or 14mm for "feathers" - rock-splitting
wedges. Into hard granite - so needs a "serious" hammer-action drill.

Maybe have to get 18V drill.
Helpful advice this morning - for same voltage - 18V to 18V - has
straight-through couplings going eg. DeWalt to Makita.
So can choose smallest neatest 18V tool.

Thanks in advance,
Rich Smith

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

We covered like topic before - buck/boost.
Just need to "buck" - reduce voltage from 18V to 12V
In your opinions - small fitment going into battery "shoe" of 12V tool
adapting to fitting an 18V battery pack and having the "buck"
volts-to-amps trade - is viable?
They exist and are offered - eg. on Alibaba.

Want an SDS drill small enough to carry in a shoulder-bag through a mine
- but use existing 18V batteries - not expensive option of starting
stock of 12V batteries.
For drilling holes - 10mm or 14mm for "feathers" - rock-splitting
wedges. Into hard granite - so needs a "serious" hammer-action drill.

Maybe have to get 18V drill.
Helpful advice this morning - for same voltage - 18V to 18V - has
straight-through couplings going eg. DeWalt to Makita.
So can choose smallest neatest 18V tool.

Thanks in advance,
Rich Smith

----------------------------
Viable - yes, easy - perhaps not. That's the sort of thing I do. An adapter
to plug into to the 12V tool could be made from a dead battery pack, though
you have to strip the batteries out while keeping the retaining latch, and
the contacts may depend on the cells (or waxed dowels) to stay in place.
Flexible silicone-insulated wire is very helpful to reduce strain on
unintended solder connections. The straight oval Makita packs unlatch to
disassemble.

Then you can measure the stall current of the motor and select a converter
that can handle it. In my experience the cheap import voltage converters
aren't too hard to fry from an overload and their max current rating is only
with external fan cooling. Be sure to fuse the wiring.

Unless I carve a connector holder on the milling machine my DIY battery pack
connectors are thin strips of copper or brass jammed into the slots, since
the packs don't usually reversibly disassemble to allow soldering
internally. Nickel strips sold as weld-on tabs for replacement battery cells
might survive dampness better. The charger contacts could be wired to bring
out power from a plugged-in battery though that might be too awkward and
vulnerable down in the mine.

I mark the battery terminals with red (+) and black (-) nail polish to avoid
accidents. Asking a female clerk for help finding it can be an adventure.

The simpler approach may be to make a corded portable battery pack from a
12V, 18A AGM or LiFeP04 enclosed in a waterproof (?) plastic ammo box, and
parallel the tool's battery contacts with a pigtail power cord. Anderson or
Powerpole PP45 connectors work well to interconnect DC power because they
are non-gendered and insulated on both sides when unplugged. Plug and socket
connectors aren't meant to safely pass power in both directions, to charge
and discharge the battery. For wet locations MC4 connectors for solar panels
are waterproof when connected, and safe to handle when unplugged.

If you are converting from old dead NiCads to currently available NiMH
packs, the old charger may or may not damage them by overcharging. I bought
a cheap compatible Vinida charger for my converted DeWalt.

Good Luck!

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

Want an SDS drill small enough to carry in a shoulder-bag through a mine
- but use existing 18V batteries - not expensive option of starting
stock of 12V batteries.
For drilling holes - 10mm or 14mm for "feathers" - rock-splitting
wedges. Into hard granite - so needs a "serious" hammer-action drill.

------------------------

This is what I have and it's barely fast enough in granite for homeowner
use:
https://usatoolsinc.com/makita-1-1-2-in-rotary-hammer-spline-ac-dc-hr3851-discontinued-replaced-by-hr4041c/

When it broke the contractor replaced it with a larger Hitachi. He had
bought it to run pipes and conduit through concrete, and complained about
how slow it was. I'm well equipped partly because friends give me stuff they
can't fix.

[Richard Smith]

Must take my 240V power tool to the mine and at the surface try it on
pieces of granite from the mine.
Calibrate my judgement of what an impact energy in J(oules) relates to
as a drilling ability.
Looking to identify suitable battery-powered drill.
The holes for the "feathers" need to be 2inch to 3inch deep - not a lot.
To have a smaller lighter drill (the machine), could be willing to
pilot-drill and full-size drill.

Thanks for comment I read as being that to "buck" in such a small space
- between an 18V battery and a fitting into the 12V "shoe" - is not
likely to be a robust device.

Rich S

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

Thanks for comment I read as being that to "buck" in such a small space
- between an 18V battery and a fitting into the 12V "shoe" - is not
likely to be a robust device.

Rich S
-------------------------------
I don't have experience with the higher powered buck converters except for
this, which may be more money and complexity and less ruggedness than you
want:
https://www.amazon.com/RD-Constant-Step-Down-Converter-Voltmeter/dp/B099YZFX34

A metal case is available, for dry indoor use. It's a very useful tool for
experimenting, component testing and maintaining batteries of all types and
voltages, AAA to golf cart. I've run it near full current for hours
recharging a deep cycle battery after a capacity test.

The ones that failed were >10A buck-boost converters, a different circuit.
The smaller 4-5A buck and buck-boost converters have been fine.

A freshly charged NiCad / NiMH can be quite a few volts higher than its
nominal voltage. The voltage from my "14.4V" charger reaches 22V just before
full charge shutoff, and the battery measures 17-18V. A meter or storage
scope shows the small voltage steps down as each cell fully charges and
begins generating oxygen instead. They set the amount of anode and cathode
material unequal to make it generate oxygen which recombines and raises the
temperature before hydrogen which would have to vent. The extra contact is
for an internal temperature sensor. AGMs do the same, the reason their
charging current should be limited.

I wasn't going to suggest running on the higher voltage because I haven't
tried it, my second hand cordless drills aren't beat-up enough to sacrifice
for a data point. Drilling thin aluminum isn't like chugging several inches
into granite. The hole needs to be about as deep as the length of the wedge.

[Snag]

Post by Richard Smith
Want an SDS drill small enough to carry in a shoulder-bag through a mine
- but use existing 18V batteries - not expensive option of starting
stock of 12V batteries.
For drilling holes - 10mm or 14mm for "feathers" - rock-splitting
wedges.  Into hard granite - so needs a "serious" hammer-action drill.
------------------------
This is what I have and it's barely fast enough in granite for homeowner
https://usatoolsinc.com/makita-1-1-2-in-rotary-hammer-spline-ac-dc-hr3851-discontinued-replaced-by-hr4041c/
When it broke the contractor replaced it with a larger Hitachi. He had
bought it to run pipes and conduit through concrete, and complained
about how slow it was. I'm well equipped partly because friends give me
stuff they can't fix.

I too have been the recipient of tools the previous owner couldn't fix
. Mostly chainsaws and other small engine powered equipment . These
hillbillies aren't always big on routine maintenance .

[Jim Wilkins]

"Snag" wrote in message news:uroeod$4m3m$***@dont-email.me...

I too have been the recipient of tools the previous owner couldn't fix
. Mostly chainsaws and other small engine powered equipment . These
hillbillies aren't always big on routine maintenance .
Snag
-----------------------

My first chainsaw which I used until parts became unavailable was a
combination of two basket cases (same peach basket), one that wore out and
another a tree had fallen on and cracked the case. The fix wasn't apparent
to the owner.

[Gerry]

On Wed, 28 Feb 2024 19:20:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"

Post by Snag
I too have been the recipient of tools the previous owner couldn't fix
. Mostly chainsaws and other small engine powered equipment . These
hillbillies aren't always big on routine maintenance .
Snag
-----------------------
My first chainsaw which I used until parts became unavailable was a
combination of two basket cases (same peach basket), one that wore out and
another a tree had fallen on and cracked the case. The fix wasn't apparent
to the owner.

Like the "parts saw" I spent a dollar on a few years back. "Damned
thing won't run!" the fuel line was pinched between sections of the
case.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Gerry" wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...

On Wed, 28 Feb 2024 19:20:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"

Post by Snag
I too have been the recipient of tools the previous owner couldn't fix
. Mostly chainsaws and other small engine powered equipment . These
hillbillies aren't always big on routine maintenance .
Snag
-----------------------
My first chainsaw which I used until parts became unavailable was a
combination of two basket cases (same peach basket), one that wore out and
another a tree had fallen on and cracked the case. The fix wasn't apparent
to the owner.

Like the "parts saw" I spent a dollar on a few years back. "Damned
thing won't run!" the fuel line was pinched between sections of the
case.

-------------------------------

I've done that with the kill switch wire, which has soft high temperature
silicone insulation.

I bought a cheap 'broken' floor jack that needed a 70 cent snap ring to keep
a lift arm from popping off. I bought a $300 VW Beetle convertible that was
making an alarming noise in the engine area until I tightened the loose
bumper bolts.

[Gerry]

On Wed, 28 Feb 2024 21:29:27 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"

Post by Gerry
On Wed, 28 Feb 2024 19:20:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"

Post by Snag
I too have been the recipient of tools the previous owner couldn't fix
. Mostly chainsaws and other small engine powered equipment . These
hillbillies aren't always big on routine maintenance .
Snag
-----------------------
My first chainsaw which I used until parts became unavailable was a
combination of two basket cases (same peach basket), one that wore out and
another a tree had fallen on and cracked the case. The fix wasn't apparent
to the owner.

Like the "parts saw" I spent a dollar on a few years back. "Damned
thing won't run!" the fuel line was pinched between sections of the
case.
-------------------------------
I've done that with the kill switch wire, which has soft high temperature
silicone insulation.
I bought a cheap 'broken' floor jack that needed a 70 cent snap ring to keep
a lift arm from popping off. I bought a $300 VW Beetle convertible that was
making an alarming noise in the engine area until I tightened the loose
bumper bolts.

Around thirty years ago L blew a whole three bucks on "some kind of
electric meter" a Fluke 77. Junior made his college instructor jealous
when he started taking it to class!

[Jim Wilkins]

"Gerry" wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...

Around thirty years ago L blew a whole three bucks on "some kind of
electric meter" a Fluke 77. Junior made his college instructor jealous
when he started taking it to class!

----------------------

Good catch!

I got a pretty good deal on an older Fluke 8020 with a fading LCD display.
Fluke was happy to sell me a replacement LCD at a reasonable price. I also
picked up a Keithley DVM with the same problem and they laughed at me when I
asked about a replacement.

[Clare Snyder]

Post by Richard Smith
We covered like topic before - buck/boost.
Just need to "buck" - reduce voltage from 18V to 12V
In your opinions - small fitment going into battery "shoe" of 12V tool
adapting to fitting an 18V battery pack and having the "buck"
volts-to-amps trade - is viable?
They exist and are offered - eg. on Alibaba.
Want an SDS drill small enough to carry in a shoulder-bag through a mine
- but use existing 18V batteries - not expensive option of starting
stock of 12V batteries.
For drilling holes - 10mm or 14mm for "feathers" - rock-splitting
wedges. Into hard granite - so needs a "serious" hammer-action drill.
Maybe have to get 18V drill.
Helpful advice this morning - for same voltage - 18V to 18V - has
straight-through couplings going eg. DeWalt to Makita.
So can choose smallest neatest 18V tool.
Thanks in advance,
Rich Smith

Just run the 12 volt drill on 18 volts. A friend built an
entireZenith 701 airplane using a 7.2 volt cordless drill wired to a
12 volt car battery Thousands of holes - the drill ran a bit faster
than it was designed to run but that was not a problem with 1/8" bits.
I imagine the SDS hammer drill would just gain a bit of extra power
from the extra 6 volts.

[James Waldby]

We covered like topic before - buck/boost. Just need to "buck" -
reduce voltage from 18V to 12V In your opinions - small fitment
going into battery "shoe" of 12V tool adapting to fitting an 18V
battery pack and having the "buck" volts-to-amps trade - is viable?
...

Possible, as Jim Wilkins said, and maybe viable, but likely to be a
jury-rigged lashup. Do you already have a 12V SDS drill on hand, that
you want to adapt? If so, get a motorcycle-size 12V battery (like Jim
Wilkins mentioned) or just use 18V straight (like Clare Snyder
suggested). If buying new and have a choice, go with a modern 20 V or
higher voltage SDS drill, or if 18V is de rigueur, an 18V unit.

Want an SDS drill small enough to carry in a shoulder-bag through a
mine - but use existing 18V batteries - not expensive option of
starting stock of 12V batteries.

I expect that the lighter the tool, the longer it will take, if it
works at all, and in any case, extra batteries will make up much of
the weight you need to carry. BTW, how long would an extension cord
need to be? A cord might be better use of money. Am I correct in
surmising a gas-powered generator is out of the question due to its
exhaust, or is the mine's air circulation just peachy?

For drilling holes - 10mm or 14mm for "feathers" - rock-splitting
wedges. Into hard granite - so needs a "serious" hammer-action drill.

If you are drilling under a dozen holes, get a sledge and a star drill
and manually make the holes.

[Jim Wilkins]

"James Waldby" wrote in message news:urohgh$571k$***@dont-email.me...

If you are drilling under a dozen holes, get a sledge and a star drill
and manually make the holes.

------------------------

Have you actually tried drilling granite that way?

[Richard Smith]

Post by James Waldby
If you are drilling under a dozen
holes, get a sledge and a star drill
and manually make the holes.
------------------------
Have you actually tried drilling granite that way?

I haven't.
I have heard of star drills.
I wondered whether for 10mm (3/8") a lump-hammer and a said star-drill
would work...
But haven't acted on in - even looked it up, whether currently available.

The granite
This type of drill
http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/condurrow/231207_rockdrill1st/231224_holman_silver_900.html
(powerful)
could not run a 4-carbide-tips drillbit into the granite - had to use a
simple carbide chisel edged drill.

[Jim Wilkins]

Have you actually tried drilling granite [with a star drill?]

I haven't.
I have heard of star drills.
I wondered whether for 10mm (3/8") a lump-hammer and a said star-drill
would work...
But haven't acted on in - even looked it up, whether currently available.

The granite
This type of drill
http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/condurrow/231207_rockdrill1st/231224_holman_silver_900.html
(powerful)
could not run a 4-carbide-tips drillbit into the granite - had to use a
simple carbide chisel edged drill.

---------------------------------

The Makita came with a 4-flute 1-1/4" bit that was useless on granite, but a
1/2" 2 flute cut fast enough for me, maybe an inch a minute. At least I
could see it move and powder flowing out. Neither the star drill nor the
one-hand corded hammer drill did more than mark the spot where it wasn't
making visible progress.

Plan B was to move the intact boulder, which got me started with portable
DIY gantry hoists and discussions that led to the Makita. When I decided to
cover my window trim with white aluminum I made a long enough bending brake
for it, and while working on it outside on the tailgate of the truck that
neighbor came over, saw it and offered to loan me his commercial 10' Tapco
brake. I happened into a neighborhood of very handy people, carpenters,
electricians, welders and mechanics. It's not odd that one owns a bucket
loader.
https://buymbs.com/c-108-tapco-brakes.aspx?gad_source=1

I had made a 1/8" nozzle for 3/8" vinyl tubing to forcefully breathe air
onto the gathered coals of last night's fire to start another, and it was
perfect for blowing the dust out of the drill hole without getting a
facefull of it.

[Richard Smith]

Post by James Waldby

We covered like topic before - buck/boost. Just need to "buck" -
reduce voltage from 18V to 12V In your opinions - small fitment
going into battery "shoe" of 12V tool adapting to fitting an 18V
battery pack and having the "buck" volts-to-amps trade - is viable?
...

Possible, as Jim Wilkins said, and maybe viable, but likely to be a
jury-rigged lashup. Do you already have a 12V SDS drill on hand, that
you want to adapt? If so, get a motorcycle-size 12V battery (like Jim
Wilkins mentioned) or just use 18V straight (like Clare Snyder
suggested). If buying new and have a choice, go with a modern 20 V or
higher voltage SDS drill, or if 18V is de rigueur, an 18V unit.

Want an SDS drill small enough to carry in a shoulder-bag through a
mine - but use existing 18V batteries - not expensive option of
starting stock of 12V batteries.

I expect that the lighter the tool, the longer it will take, if it
works at all, and in any case, extra batteries will make up much of
the weight you need to carry. BTW, how long would an extension cord
need to be? A cord might be better use of money. Am I correct in
surmising a gas-powered generator is out of the question due to its
exhaust, or is the mine's air circulation just peachy?

For drilling holes - 10mm or 14mm for "feathers" - rock-splitting
wedges. Into hard granite - so needs a "serious" hammer-action drill.

If you are drilling under a dozen holes, get a sledge and a star drill
and manually make the holes.

Can't carry a big battery down the mine and up the raises.
Ladders.

Any mention of "mains" - some parts of the mine are running with water.
Area doing work at moment is dry - solid granite no water penetration.
But simply cannot run 240V cable around.
110V - have to bring transformer, plus cables larger - again size and
weight, getting up and down ladders, etc.

Basically it's
* turn on the compressor and use a big rock-drill
* battery-powered "cordless" drill

Videos "gold mine" showed using cordless SDS drill for bit of
prospecting and chipping - in granite.
So seems is viable.

Going to try 240V SDS on surface with mine granite seeing reality of
what the drilling is like.

No chance of gasoline generator down mine.

[Leon Fisk]

On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 07:16:29 +0000
Richard Smith <***@void.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Richard Smith
Basically it's
* turn on the compressor and use a big rock-drill
* battery-powered "cordless" drill

If you have air available... there are smaller Rock Drills. For
instance:

https://power-technique.cp.com/en-us/products/handheld-pneumatic-us/sinkers-surface-rock-drills/cp-0014rr

IF you could run a gas machine... there's a gas powered Rock Drill
with lots of Ebay listings:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/176172437823

Suspect it is like a chainsaw, using mixed gas which doesn't sound to
air friendly in small areas...

[Richard Smith]

Post by Leon Fisk
On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 07:16:29 +0000
<snip>

Post by Richard Smith
Basically it's
* turn on the compressor and use a big rock-drill
* battery-powered "cordless" drill

If you have air available... there are smaller Rock Drills. For
https://power-technique.cp.com/en-us/products/handheld-pneumatic-us/sinkers-surface-rock-drills/cp-0014rr
...

Solution come into view - will run an airline up the raise and use out
"Holman 303" sinker (jackhammer).
Very similar to the CP jackhammer you linked to.
So that is simply breaking the rocks with a chisel bit in a jackhammer.

[Leon Fisk]

On Fri, 01 Mar 2024 17:09:30 +0000
Richard Smith <***@void.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Richard Smith
Solution come into view - will run an airline up the raise and use out
"Holman 303" sinker (jackhammer).
Very similar to the CP jackhammer you linked to.
So that is simply breaking the rocks with a chisel bit in a jackhammer.

If you already have the equipment... might as well find out if it will
work for this job👍

[Richard Smith]

Yes.
Also, might as well take extension-lead, the mains-powered SDS drill and
different sized drill-bits up to larger size and see what it will do
into the mine's granite from the at-surface pile.
Use what I have.
Develop an idea of what power is needed to drill what hole size - for
"feathers" to split rocks.
In case do have to get a cordless / battery powered drill.

[Leon Fisk]

On Fri, 01 Mar 2024 21:46:52 +0000

Post by Richard Smith
Also, might as well take extension-lead, the mains-powered SDS drill and
different sized drill-bits up to larger size and see what it will do
into the mine's granite from the at-surface pile.
Use what I have.
Develop an idea of what power is needed to drill what hole size - for
"feathers" to split rocks.
In case do have to get a cordless / battery powered drill.

Very good idea👍

If you have any equipment rental companies in the area... may well be
worth trying-before-buying from them too.

[Peter Fairbrother]

Post by Richard Smith
We covered like topic before - buck/boost.
Just need to "buck" - reduce voltage from 18V to 12V

Not sure it's a good idea, see below and elsewhere, but if I were doing
it I'd go for a converter rated for at least 3 or 4 times the approx 10A
stall current, likely to cost around £30.

eg https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/195597726440 DC 24V To DC 13.8V 40A 552W
Step Down Converter.

If you need plastic bits 3D printing can help. .stls of the common
connectors are readily available online, and though typically not very
good, they can be adapted.

The metal parts are usually not too hard to make with simple hand tools,
shears and files etc, and a heavy duty soldering iron.

Post by Richard Smith
Want an SDS drill small enough to carry in a shoulder-bag through a mine
- but use existing 18V batteries - not expensive option of starting
stock of 12V batteries.
For drilling holes - 10mm or 14mm for "feathers" - rock-splitting
wedges. Into hard granite - so needs a "serious" hammer-action drill.

Most 12v drills are not going to be capable of that. In fact, most
18v/20v (typically they are the same, both batteries and tools, 20v just
sounds better) drills aren't going to find it easy, but ymmv.

Also a good hammer action is going to be heavy. Do you want SDS plus or
SDS Max?

I'd think a good SDS plus would be enough, something rated for 22m in
concrete, 16mm in steel.



You don't say what sort of 12v drill or 18v batteries you already have?


Peter Fairbrother

[Richard Smith]

Current type:
Dewalt "XR" 18V.
Have for for current pistol-grip drill and driver - pair for
"general building work".

Thanks for linking me to a representative converter 20-ish volts to
13.8V which you reckon overall is up to the job - 40A device.

The tool gets bigger, it is marginally capable of the job, and it's good
money after bad.
Had the tool taken the batteries I have, I could have even piloted and
drilled to size to keep down the size of what I take dow the mine - this
being only for if get a granite boulder I need to break apart to make
easier to take away. Carry in a shoulder bag for if-and-when.
That "solution" gone.

I tool a 240V SDS drill to the mine
https://www.wickes.co.uk/Einhell-TE-RH-32E-5kg-Rotary-Hammer-Drill---1250W/p/208095
[successor model
https://www.einhell.co.uk/p/4257944-te-rh-32-4f-kit/
on maker's website]
and tried it on the mine granite brought to the surface.
That granite is hard tough stuff.
I will take a greater range of drill bits and form a map of what can be
done with that SDS drill.
This one is rated at "5J" (5 Joules of energy) for the impact action.

"I'd think a good SDS plus would be enough, something rated for 22m in
concrete, 16mm in steel."
I'd guess so - will update if find anything different.

Anyway, good news is plan for coming session - going to run an air-hose
up the raise and use a jackhammer to break up the rocks lying around on
that sub-level.

Explanation offered by an ex-miner why boulders there...
When used as a training mine, they showed going into the side of the
tunnel as if looking if lode went that way, and didn't use enough
blasting medium to shatter and break up the rock - said needed twice as
much blasting medium.

[Peter Fairbrother]

Post by Richard Smith
Dewalt "XR" 18V.

DCH133 @ about £100 ?

There is granite and granite, but

Peter Fairbrother

[Richard Smith]

Post by Peter Fairbrother

Post by Richard Smith
Dewalt "XR" 18V.

There is granite and granite, but
http://youtu.be/dNat1FCDfiA
Peter Fairbrother

Must be doing something right because I also found that channel. The
comparison you found - the two plausible "classic electric drill shaped"
SDS drills - going into granite is about as good as it gets. Didn't
find that exact one.

30-something 12mm holes in granite implies I should be just fine for
shooting holes into granite for "feathers" (splitting wedges).
The 14mm (9/16ths") ones arrived today, BTW.
If the 10mm "feathers" work well, should be fine even when down the mine
with big piles of granite rocks to deal with.

Having spent all this time, will probably go for one - likely the
newer-model drill.
Seems to have enough of an advantage to be worth that extra "headroom" in
performance.
Slower revs but more impact = longer drill-bit life?
I have something like 3 or 4 of the DeWalt "XR" 18V batteries. going
with my other DeWalt tools.
So should be fine down the mine.
Or doing some prospecting. Or whatever.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

Must be doing something right because I also found that channel. The
comparison you found - the two plausible "classic electric drill shaped"
SDS drills - going into granite is about as good as it gets. Didn't
find that exact one.

30-something 12mm holes in granite implies I should be just fine for
shooting holes into granite for "feathers" (splitting wedges).
The 14mm (9/16ths") ones arrived today, BTW.
If the 10mm "feathers" work well, should be fine even when down the mine
with big piles of granite rocks to deal with.

Having spent all this time, will probably go for one - likely the
newer-model drill.
Seems to have enough of an advantage to be worth that extra "headroom" in
performance.
Slower revs but more impact = longer drill-bit life?
I have something like 3 or 4 of the DeWalt "XR" 18V batteries. going
with my other DeWalt tools.
So should be fine down the mine.
Or doing some prospecting. Or whatever.

------------------

I noticed a tendency for the fracture line to be perpendicular to the bottom
of the holes instead of continuing beyond them, so a large flake shears off
the surface. Perhaps a quarryman would have some good advice.

[Richard Smith]

You are probably seeing the price in a pretty box with two
large-capacity batteries - 4Ah or 5Ah.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

You are probably seeing the price in a pretty box with two
large-capacity batteries - 4Ah or 5Ah.

---------------------------------

I've used a large powerful drill to cut 4" holes for conduit in steel and
would rather not have to need to again. It was inside a closet-sized
electrical enclosure and when the hole saw jammed the long-handled geared
drill would continue for another quarter turn, whether or not some part of
me was in the way.

The Makita is something of a beast too, but I use it outside. When with a
crew I feel like the squad member who has the machine gun.

[Richard Smith]

Post by Richard Smith
You are probably seeing the price in a pretty box with two
large-capacity batteries - 4Ah or 5Ah.
---------------------------------
I've used a large powerful drill to cut 4" holes for conduit in steel
and would rather not have to need to again. It was inside a
closet-sized electrical enclosure and when the hole saw jammed the
long-handled geared drill would continue for another quarter turn,
whether or not some part of me was in the way.
The Makita is something of a beast too, but I use it outside. When
with a crew I feel like the squad member who has the machine gun.

Got the DeWalt DCH263 - arrived.
Seems for-real - batteries I already have fit it, etc.
Bought a couple of SDS masonry drill-bits - 14mm and 10mm.

Already have 14mm "feathers" - splitting wedges.

Hope to take them to the mine next week and see if can split rocks -
this hard granite.

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Richard Smith
You are probably seeing the price in a pretty box with two
large-capacity batteries - 4Ah or 5Ah.
---------------------------------
I've used a large powerful drill to cut 4" holes for conduit in steel
and would rather not have to need to again. It was inside a
closet-sized electrical enclosure and when the hole saw jammed the
long-handled geared drill would continue for another quarter turn,
whether or not some part of me was in the way.
The Makita is something of a beast too, but I use it outside. When
with a crew I feel like the squad member who has the machine gun.

Got the DeWalt DCH263 - arrived.
Seems for-real - batteries I already have fit it, etc.
Bought a couple of SDS masonry drill-bits - 14mm and 10mm.

Already have 14mm "feathers" - splitting wedges.

Hope to take them to the mine next week and see if can split rocks -
this hard granite.

--------------------------------
The advice from Trow and Holden was about splitting granite neatly in a
quarry. The miners may have other ways to split it roughly to dispose of it.

The only way I've seen was with the hydraulic jackhammer on an excavator,
and it could take perhaps an hour to crack a large granite boulder left from
blasting and meant for fill. They drilled to blast but not to break up the
rubble.

[Richard Smith]

Post by Richard Smith

Post by Richard Smith
You are probably seeing the price in a pretty box with two
large-capacity batteries - 4Ah or 5Ah.
---------------------------------
I've used a large powerful drill to cut 4" holes for conduit in steel
and would rather not have to need to again. It was inside a
closet-sized electrical enclosure and when the hole saw jammed the
long-handled geared drill would continue for another quarter turn,
whether or not some part of me was in the way.
The Makita is something of a beast too, but I use it outside. When
with a crew I feel like the squad member who has the machine gun.

Got the DeWalt DCH263 - arrived.
Seems for-real - batteries I already have fit it, etc.
Bought a couple of SDS masonry drill-bits - 14mm and 10mm.
Already have 14mm "feathers" - splitting wedges.
Hope to take them to the mine next week and see if can split rocks -
this hard granite.
--------------------------------
The advice from Trow and Holden was about splitting granite neatly in
a quarry. The miners may have other ways to split it roughly to
dispose of it.
The only way I've seen was with the hydraulic jackhammer on an
excavator, and it could take perhaps an hour to crack a large granite
boulder left from blasting and meant for fill. They drilled to blast
but not to break up the rubble.

Amazed at supplies store here in UK - one link was "black powder".
Followed the link - is used by stonemasons - makes total sense.
Will part rock from rock - but not shatter the rock - which a "modern"
blasting medium would.

So you saw unusable stone - for some reason - shape, flaws, etc.? -
which they had to break-up?

Probably mentioned previously - the task at the mine is said to be
because, although they used a brisant blasting medium, they didn't use
enough of it to shatter rock into easily-managed small stuff.
Which nett is usually much cheaper (?) than having to break up big
rocks.

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Jim Wilkins
The only way I've seen was with the hydraulic jackhammer on an
excavator, and it could take perhaps an hour to crack a large granite
boulder left from blasting and meant for fill. They drilled to blast
but not to break up the rubble.

So you saw unusable stone - for some reason - shape, flaws, etc.? -
which they had to break-up?

------------------------------

That was at a construction site where they were smoothing very uneven
terrain enough to build houses on. They blasted the ridges to fill in the
gulleys and named the development in memory of what they had destroyed. A
machine like this crushed much of the rubble to gravel, sharp-edged like you
want instead of the glacial-runoff-smoothed gravel in the ground here.
https://www.quarrymagazine.com/2020/03/19/selecting-the-right-crusher-for-your-operations/

The relatively little flat land here is mostly already developed. New
Hampshire is the "Granite State" for good reason, it somewhat resembles the
Scottish Highlands, even to the caber tossing.
https://nhscot.org/highland-games-nh/
Notice the background mountains. The site is a ski resort.

[Richard Smith]

Post by Peter Fairbrother

Post by Richard Smith
Dewalt "XR" 18V.

There is granite and granite, but
http://youtu.be/dNat1FCDfiA
Peter Fairbrother

Went for the
DeWalt DCH263N

In that test (and others?) there seemed to be enough advantage to the
DCH263, in max drill size, drilling rate and amount of holes drilled per
battery charge. Plus the price is 20quid higher - not vast difference.

Hopefully will report back what it can do.
Aiming for weeks time at the mine.

Rich S

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Peter Fairbrother

Post by Richard Smith
Dewalt "XR" 18V.

There is granite and granite, but
http://youtu.be/dNat1FCDfiA
Peter Fairbrother

Went for the
DeWalt DCH263N

In that test (and others?) there seemed to be enough advantage to the
DCH263, in max drill size, drilling rate and amount of holes drilled per
battery charge. Plus the price is 20quid higher - not vast difference.

Hopefully will report back what it can do.
Aiming for weeks time at the mine.

Rich S

----------------------------
Nice drill, beyond my price range to buy new.
Are they paying you for this?

[Richard Smith]

Post by Jim Wilkins

Went for the DeWalt DCH263N

Nice drill, beyond my price range to buy new.
Are they paying you for this?

No.

But haven't got a "cordless" SDS drill, price pretty good for "bare"
drill and have the batteries already for my "carpentry type" driver (for
wood-screws) and drill (for wood-bits going into joists etc.)

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Richard Smith
We covered like topic before - buck/boost.
Just need to "buck" - reduce voltage from 18V to 12V

Not sure it's a good idea, see below and elsewhere, but if I were doing
it I'd go for a converter rated for at least 3 or 4 times the approx 10A
stall current, likely to cost around £30.

eg https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/195597726440 DC 24V To DC 13.8V 40A 552W
Step Down Converter.

If you need plastic bits 3D printing can help. .stls of the common
connectors are readily available online, and though typically not very
good, they can be adapted.

The metal parts are usually not too hard to make with simple hand tools,
shears and files etc, and a heavy duty soldering iron.

--------------------------------

The battery terminals on my 14.4V DeWalt drill are flat blades nearly 2mm
thick, the drill contacts are female receptacles. You could make individual
flat blade contacts attached to stiff solid wire and poke them in, slide
rubber tubing down over the wires to prevent an accidental short if they
come loose, then secure them somehow at the opening to the battery well. The
white nylon terminal strips with setscrew wire connection make good
removeable wire splices to connect the flexible power cord, and perhaps hold
the terminal wires in place.

Polymer clay is uncured PVC resin that can be molded to fit an irregular
recess and then hardened in that shape by baking. Plastic parts may be
difficult to copy by measurement because of their draft angles, which are
necessary to remove them from the molds.

"Heatshrink" tubing is better than electrical tape to insulate connections
because it won't loosen with age like some brands of tape. The Marine
version contains hot melt glue that waterproofs the joint.

[Richard Smith]

Hi everyone.

Posted at top of thread - wishing to thank everyone who contributed to
this "journey" whose extent (effort, duration) I never anticipated.

Here is the outcome - what a surprise. In a very pleasant way!
There is hope this is "for real".
I handed the equipment to another person who came by to see how I as
getting on, and trying it he concurs - it works and it is to be hoped
this is "for real".

http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/240314_rocksplit/240314_rocksplit_drill_feathers.html
"Rock-split granite with "cordless" SDS drill and "feathers""

Well would you ever have believed it...?!

Best wishes,
Rich Smith

[Clare Snyder]

Post by Richard Smith
Hi everyone.
Posted at top of thread - wishing to thank everyone who contributed to
this "journey" whose extent (effort, duration) I never anticipated.
Here is the outcome - what a surprise. In a very pleasant way!
There is hope this is "for real".
I handed the equipment to another person who came by to see how I as
getting on, and trying it he concurs - it works and it is to be hoped
this is "for real".
http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/240314_rocksplit/240314_rocksplit_drill_feathers.html
"Rock-split granite with "cordless" SDS drill and "feathers""
Well would you ever have believed it...?!
Best wishes,
Rich Smith

Excellent, Rick

[Leon Fisk]

On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 13:31:43 +0000
Richard Smith <***@void.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Richard Smith
http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/240314_rocksplit/240314_rocksplit_drill_feathers.html
"Rock-split granite with "cordless" SDS drill and "feathers""

Rich,

NICE job! You have a working solution to this problem👍

Forgive me... but my mind immediately went to why not make (or buy)
some larger feathers to fit the Pneumatic drill hole and maybe some
smaller feathers so your battery drill could use a smaller drill hole🤔

[Jim Wilkins]

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:ut1pkd$293a4$***@dont-email.me...

On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 13:31:43 +0000
Richard Smith <***@void.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Richard Smith
http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/240314_rocksplit/240314_rocksplit_drill_feathers.html
"Rock-split granite with "cordless" SDS drill and "feathers""

Rich,

NICE job! You have a working solution to this problem👍

Forgive me... but my mind immediately went to why not make (or buy)
some larger feathers to fit the Pneumatic drill hole and maybe some
smaller feathers so your battery drill could use a smaller drill hole🤔

[Richard Smith]

Post by Leon Fisk
On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 13:31:43 +0000
<snip>

Post by Richard Smith
http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/240314_rocksplit/240314_rocksplit_drill_feathers.html
"Rock-split granite with "cordless" SDS drill and "feathers""

Rich,
NICE job! You have a working solution to this problem👍
Forgive me... but my mind immediately went to why not make (or buy)
some larger feathers to fit the Pneumatic drill hole and maybe some
smaller feathers so your battery drill could use a smaller drill hole🤔

If I'd got the Trow & Holden feathers they would have been as-described
and I could use a 10mm drill

(/f (expt 10 2) (expt 14 2)) ;; 0.5102040816326531

Half the area and volume drilled.

"I had to start somewhere" :-)

Best wishes,

[Richard Smith]

Thanks again everyone.
Lots of very encouraging words - appreciated.
When I wrote that webpage on the working solution I recalled how much
interconnected detail there is in getting there.

Is it worth writing those webpages?
Well it seems as if a lot of things is like climbing an ice face with two
picks, and you don't let any grip be feeble.
I get a lot of help and hopefully to some extent earn it.

Best wishes

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

Is it worth writing those webpages?

------------------------------
They are interesting and could be very valuable for a job application for a
research project, showing you can both do innovative work and present the
results clearly.
https://www.verywellhealth.com/left-brain-vs-right-brain-7093257

I post for practice in clear technical explanation, a skill I've struggled
with for much of my life, until I found a critical audience here whose
opinions don't affect my yearly reviews or paychecks.

Lately I've been writing spreadsheets for practice. Today I completed one
that calculates my taxes. My sister actually files them for me with
professional software, and each year I've come closer to matching her
results.

[Richard Smith]

Post by Leon Fisk
On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 13:31:43 +0000
<snip>

Post by Richard Smith
http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/240314_rocksplit/240314_rocksplit_drill_feathers.html
"Rock-split granite with "cordless" SDS drill and "feathers""

Rich,
NICE job! You have a working solution to this problem👍
Forgive me... but my mind immediately went to why not make (or buy)
some larger feathers to fit the Pneumatic drill hole and maybe some
smaller feathers so your battery drill could use a smaller drill hole🤔

Not at all "forgive" - comment welcomed.

There are some large feathers for the 32mm to 34mm hole.
Thing is, from my observation, they work no better than the small
feathers on this granite.
Line of small holes with matching feathers is "it".

Problem is the compressor isn't running all the time.
Would be in a working mine, but this is a "hobby" mine.
Splitting rocks and clearing debris is like an infil job which comes
when it comes.
Takes several people and some time to get the compressor running.
Not going to happen when you find yourself with some time mid-way
through a club morning at the mine.

If I could make some wedges of the same taper but thinner, maybe could
come down to a 12mm / half-inch hole
Area-ratio, so proportional to diameter-squared
(/f (expt 14 2) (expt 12 2)) ;; 1.3611111111111112
(/f (expt 12 2) (expt 14 2)) ;; 0.7346938775510204
73% of the area.
Would be well worth having.

Yes absolutely {thumbs-up}

Best wishes, Rich Smith

[Leon Fisk]

On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 18:35:24 +0000
Richard Smith <***@void.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Richard Smith
There are some large feathers for the 32mm to 34mm hole.
Thing is, from my observation, they work no better than the small
feathers on this granite.

My thinking was if there were already big holes drilled and the piece
hadn't been split you wouldn't have to make more holes.

Regarding whether to make a webpage with stuff like this... I gain info
from lots of web pages that aren't exactly about the problem I'm trying
to solve. I find them useful. You do a lot of the same. You're able to
apply a concept or idea elsewhere in a completely unrelated field. As
I've aged I now realize a lot of people can't do this😑

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Leon Fisk
On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 18:35:24 +0000
<snip>

Post by Richard Smith
There are some large feathers for the 32mm to 34mm hole.
Thing is, from my observation, they work no better than the small
feathers on this granite.

My thinking was if there were already big holes drilled and the piece
hadn't been split you wouldn't have to make more holes.
Regarding whether to make a webpage with stuff like this... I gain info
from lots of web pages that aren't exactly about the problem I'm trying
to solve. I find them useful. You do a lot of the same. You're able to
apply a concept or idea elsewhere in a completely unrelated field. As
I've aged I now realize a lot of people can't do this😑

I used to call it relational hooks. There more stuff you know the
easier it is to learn other stuff.

[Richard Smith]

Post by Leon Fisk
On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 18:35:24 +0000
<snip>

Post by Richard Smith
There are some large feathers for the 32mm to 34mm hole.
Thing is, from my observation, they work no better than the small
feathers on this granite.

My thinking was if there were already big holes drilled and the piece
hadn't been split you wouldn't have to make more holes.
Regarding whether to make a webpage with stuff like this... I gain info
from lots of web pages that aren't exactly about the problem I'm trying
to solve. I find them useful. You do a lot of the same. You're able to
apply a concept or idea elsewhere in a completely unrelated field. As
I've aged I now realize a lot of people can't do this😑

I had that explained to me when I was in my mid-20's. I was confused -
by just about everything - then chance had a significant encounter.
Husband of a lady who grew up next door.

He explained - the problem is everyone else - because as he explained i
was seeing things - correlations - they would never see.
With people I like I have learned to handle that - let them see that I
see these things and can make good results happen. If you otherwise fit
in, they will relate to things like "this is the sole employer in town
and we need it to survive". Was a happy time when I lived in "cider
country" in England. The technical part of my brain was very functional
then - warnings of becoming a "local yokel" were unfounded. "Win-win"
situation.

I've told you something jolly.
In Britain I have to work in jobs like welder because the ability is
frightening in a highly managerialised society.
Any difference from "mainstream average of averages" is instant
rejection.
That said - the vision of them hiding under their desks and whispering
to each other "Has he gone yet?" is amusing. I tend to pour it on
thickly when it's obvious this interview is going nowhere.

[David Billington]

Post by Richard Smith

Post by Leon Fisk
On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 13:31:43 +0000
<snip>

Post by Richard Smith
http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/240314_rocksplit/240314_rocksplit_drill_feathers.html
"Rock-split granite with "cordless" SDS drill and "feathers""

Rich,
NICE job! You have a working solution to this problem👍
Forgive me... but my mind immediately went to why not make (or buy)
some larger feathers to fit the Pneumatic drill hole and maybe some
smaller feathers so your battery drill could use a smaller drill hole🤔

Not at all "forgive" - comment welcomed.
There are some large feathers for the 32mm to 34mm hole.
Thing is, from my observation, they work no better than the small
feathers on this granite.
Line of small holes with matching feathers is "it".
Problem is the compressor isn't running all the time.
Would be in a working mine, but this is a "hobby" mine.
Splitting rocks and clearing debris is like an infil job which comes
when it comes.
Takes several people and some time to get the compressor running.
Not going to happen when you find yourself with some time mid-way
through a club morning at the mine.
If I could make some wedges of the same taper but thinner, maybe could
come down to a 12mm / half-inch hole
Area-ratio, so proportional to diameter-squared
(/f (expt 14 2) (expt 12 2)) ;; 1.3611111111111112
(/f (expt 12 2) (expt 14 2)) ;; 0.7346938775510204
73% of the area.
Would be well worth having.
Yes absolutely {thumbs-up}
Best wishes, Rich Smith

Richard,

Have you tried or considered the old method of dry wood hammered into
the holes and then wetting it, not something I've tried but an article
here
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Rock-split-by-using-the-swelling-pressure-of-wood-Egypt-2001_fig5_267834899
.

[Jim Wilkins]

"David Billington" wrote in message news:ut2am8$2ev2g$***@dont-email.me...

Richard,

Have you tried or considered the old method of dry wood hammered into
the holes and then wetting it, not something I've tried but an article
here
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Rock-split-by-using-the-swelling-pressure-of-wood-Egypt-2001_fig5_267834899
.
---------------------------------
I don't put much faith in academic scholars' guesses about Egyptian tech.
The pyramid stones weigh around 5000 Lbs, a weight a small crew with j-bars
can slide onto a flat bed truck, BTDT. I've lifted 4000 Lb logs to block
them up off the damp ground.
https://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equipment-rental/forklifts/johnson-bar/1501085/

There are similar splitting cuts in stones at Mystery Hill in Salem NH, USA.
The guides' explanation is that they were cut with a thin chisel for iron
splitting wedges before the star drill was invented in the early 1800's.
Water is easily squeezed out of wet wood.
https://mysteryhillnh.info/

A similar but undercut slot is used to lift stones:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_(lifting_appliance)
The 3 legged one was a status symbol for Church officials.

[David Billington]

Post by David Billington
Richard,
Have you tried or considered the old method of dry wood hammered into
the holes and then wetting it, not something I've tried but an article
here
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Rock-split-by-using-the-swelling-pressure-of-wood-Egypt-2001_fig5_267834899
.
---------------------------------
I don't put much faith in academic scholars' guesses about Egyptian
tech. The pyramid stones weigh around 5000 Lbs, a weight a small crew
with j-bars can slide onto a flat bed truck, BTDT. I've lifted 4000 Lb
logs to block them up off the damp ground.
https://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equipment-rental/forklifts/johnson-bar/1501085/

It was a technique I was told about decades ago as being a traditional
method, the scholar's paper was just the first I came across when I
searched for information.

Post by David Billington
There are similar splitting cuts in stones at Mystery Hill in Salem
NH, USA. The guides' explanation is that they were cut with a thin
chisel for iron splitting wedges before the star drill was invented in
the early 1800's. Water is easily squeezed out of wet wood.
https://mysteryhillnh.info/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_(lifting_appliance)
The 3 legged one was a status symbol for Church officials.

[Peter Fairbrother]

Post by David Billington

Post by Richard Smith
http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/240314_rocksplit/240314_rocksplit_drill_feathers.html
"Rock-split granite with "cordless" SDS drill and "feathers""

Yeaay!

Post by David Billington
Have you tried or considered the old method of dry wood hammered into
the holes and then wetting it, not something I've tried but an article
here
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Rock-split-by-using-the-swelling-pressure-of-wood-Egypt-2001_fig5_267834899 .

I believe there is a modern high-tech variant, famously exemplified when
Jason Statham uses an expanding plug to crack the glass bottom of a
mid-air swimming pool.

Ah yes, Dexpan, Crackamite and/or Expando. I thought it was real ...


Peter Fairbrother

[Richard Smith]

Post by David Billington

Post by Richard Smith

Post by Leon Fisk
On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 13:31:43 +0000
<snip>

Post by Richard Smith
http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/240314_rocksplit/240314_rocksplit_drill_feathers.html
"Rock-split granite with "cordless" SDS drill and "feathers""

Rich,
NICE job! You have a working solution to this problem👍
Forgive me... but my mind immediately went to why not make (or buy)
some larger feathers to fit the Pneumatic drill hole and maybe some
smaller feathers so your battery drill could use a smaller drill hole🤔

Not at all "forgive" - comment welcomed.
There are some large feathers for the 32mm to 34mm hole.
Thing is, from my observation, they work no better than the small
feathers on this granite.
Line of small holes with matching feathers is "it".
Problem is the compressor isn't running all the time.
Would be in a working mine, but this is a "hobby" mine.
Splitting rocks and clearing debris is like an infil job which comes
when it comes.
Takes several people and some time to get the compressor running.
Not going to happen when you find yourself with some time mid-way
through a club morning at the mine.
If I could make some wedges of the same taper but thinner, maybe could
come down to a 12mm / half-inch hole
Area-ratio, so proportional to diameter-squared
(/f (expt 14 2) (expt 12 2)) ;; 1.3611111111111112
(/f (expt 12 2) (expt 14 2)) ;; 0.7346938775510204
73% of the area.
Would be well worth having.
Yes absolutely {thumbs-up}
Best wishes, Rich Smith

Richard,
Have you tried or considered the old method of dry wood hammered into
the holes and then wetting it, not something I've tried but an article
here
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Rock-split-by-using-the-swelling-pressure-of-wood-Egypt-2001_fig5_267834899
.

Not tried it - should, to respect forebearers and live their experience.
Modern there is "splitting compound". Mix the powder with water - is
expansile when "sets" - can be used to burst rocks. Never tried that.
But yes if find opportunity would be good to try the ancient method and
experience it. Would be good feeling of treading prior footsteps should
I get it to work.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

Not tried it - should, to respect forebearers and live their experience.
Modern there is "splitting compound". Mix the powder with water - is
expansile when "sets" - can be used to burst rocks. Never tried that.
But yes if find opportunity would be good to try the ancient method and
experience it. Would be good feeling of treading prior footsteps should
I get it to work.

----------------------------

I have a 10,000# pressure load cell and lots of dry wedge-shaped oak chips
created by the log splitter, so I'll try it after today's chores. My
experience from splitting heavy wet firewood small enough to lift to the top
of the stack is that an axe hit inadequate to split the wood forces water
from it on both sides.

[David Billington]

Post by Richard Smith
Not tried it - should, to respect forebearers and live their experience.
Modern there is "splitting compound".  Mix the powder with water - is
expansile when "sets" - can be used to burst rocks.  Never tried that.
But yes if find opportunity would be good to try the ancient method and
experience it.  Would be good feeling of treading prior footsteps should
I get it to work.
----------------------------
I have a 10,000# pressure load cell and lots of dry wedge-shaped oak
chips created by the log splitter, so I'll try it after today's
chores. My experience from splitting heavy wet firewood small enough
to lift to the top of the stack is that an axe hit inadequate to split
the wood forces water from it on both sides.

What sort of oak? I'm reminded my doctor had an oak mail box made at
some expense and it didn't fare well outdoors and from what I was told
by a couple of woodworkers it must have been red oak as that's not
durable outdoors. English oak, European oak and American white oak is
durable so maybe some wood is better for splitting rock than others.

I had another look at the wet wood splitting and saw mention of wet wood
being hammered in and allowed to freeze in the winter to cause splitting.

[Jim Wilkins]

"David Billington" wrote in message news:ut476u$2tjvv$***@dont-email.me...

What sort of oak? I'm reminded my doctor had an oak mail box made at
some expense and it didn't fare well outdoors and from what I was told
by a couple of woodworkers it must have been red oak as that's not
durable outdoors. English oak, European oak and American white oak is
durable so maybe some wood is better for splitting rock than others.

I had another look at the wet wood splitting and saw mention of wet wood
being hammered in and allowed to freeze in the winter to cause splitting.

--------------------------------
Waiting for laundry water to heat on the woodstove.

The red oak chips are too irregular, I found some extra pine wedges sold to
shim doors and windows.

I've heard that white oak lasts longer but the fungus here attacks it
faster. The red oaks I marked to cut for firewood could stand for 10 years
after dying and still only be rotted at the damp base and top branches, the
trunks were solid and dry enough to split and burn immediately. Pallets made
of red oak last outdoors for decades unless directly on damp ground. It's
used for flooring on construction trailers that stay outdoors. White oaks
rotted inward from the bark and went bad much sooner. I looked for it to saw
into furniture lumber but found no unrotted dead white oak in the forest,
only one in my yard that I cut down soon after dying.

[Jim Wilkins]

What sort of oak? I'm reminded my doctor had an oak mail box made at
some expense and it didn't fare well outdoors and from what I was told
by a couple of woodworkers it must have been red oak as that's not
durable outdoors. English oak, European oak and American white oak is
durable so maybe some wood is better for splitting rock than others.

I had another look at the wet wood splitting and saw mention of wet wood
being hammered in and allowed to freeze in the winter to cause splitting.

---------------------------

The load cell is an older model of this, last calibrated in 1992.
https://rwelectrodes.com/products/tuffaloy-10000-lb-gauge
The rest of the fixture is a C clamp pressing the wood against the plunger.

Two thin pine wedges tapped together gave a splitting force around 100 Lbs.
I doubled it to 200 Lbs, one tick mark, on a 3/8" thick square of red oak
in a plastic bag and added water about 20 minutes ago. So far the gauge
needle hasn't moved.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:ut4jh5$309ec$***@dont-email.me...

I doubled it to 200 Lbs, one tick mark, on a 3/8" thick square of red oak
in a plastic bag and added water about 20 minutes ago. So far the gauge
needle hasn't moved.
-----------------------
4 hours later, if anything the pressure has decreased by the pointer width.
Into the freezer with it, until I need the space for the kettle of beef stew
I'm cooking.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:ut5195$334ch$***@dont-email.me...

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:ut4jh5$309ec$***@dont-email.me...

I doubled it to 200 Lbs, one tick mark, on a 3/8" thick square of red oak
in a plastic bag and added water about 20 minutes ago. So far the gauge
needle hasn't moved.
-----------------------
4 hours later, if anything the pressure has decreased by the pointer width.
Into the freezer with it, until I need the space for the kettle of beef stew
I'm cooking.
----------------------------------------
2 more hours, 0F, the pressure is zero and the C clamp isn't tight. Out to
see if the pressure recovers as the gauge warms.

It does, a little.

Either wet wedging doesn't work or I missed something.

[David Billington]

I doubled it to 200 Lbs, one tick mark,  on a 3/8" thick square of red
oak
in a plastic bag and added water about 20 minutes ago. So far the gauge
needle hasn't moved.
-----------------------
4 hours later, if anything the pressure has decreased by the pointer width.
Into the freezer with it, until I need the space for the kettle of beef stew
I'm cooking.
----------------------------------------
2 more hours, 0F, the pressure is zero and the C clamp isn't tight.
Out to see if the pressure recovers as the gauge warms.
It does, a little.
Either wet wedging doesn't work or I missed something.

Why I asked about the type of oak is that I was told red oak has an open
cell structure and can allow water to wick into the wood easily which
isn't the case with other types of oak, maybe in this case that is
preventing any cellular swelling or allowing any pressure to squeeze the
water out. Can you repeat the test with white oak. I have some English
oak here but my force gauge is out of action until I replace the
loadcell lead.

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Jim Wilkins
I doubled it to 200 Lbs, one tick mark, on a 3/8" thick square of red oak
in a plastic bag and added water about 20 minutes ago. So far the gauge
needle hasn't moved.
-----------------------
4 hours later, if anything the pressure has decreased by the pointer width.
Into the freezer with it, until I need the space for the kettle of beef stew
I'm cooking.
----------------------------------------
2 more hours, 0F, the pressure is zero and the C clamp isn't tight. Out to
see if the pressure recovers as the gauge warms.
It does, a little.
Either wet wedging doesn't work or I missed something.

Why I asked about the type of oak is that I was told red oak has an open
cell structure and can allow water to wick into the wood easily which
isn't the case with other types of oak, maybe in this case that is
preventing any cellular swelling or allowing any pressure to squeeze the
water out. Can you repeat the test with white oak. I have some English
oak here but my force gauge is out of action until I replace the
loadcell lead.
---------------------------------
My white oak is still in logs so sample prep could take a while and this is
a busy time of year, I need to split and stack next year's firewood to dry,
upgrade a few things on the sawmill and get the logs out of my front yard. I
paused outdoor projects in mid December and began again in February. The
question is academic if steel wedges and feathers are available.

The gauge has warmed up and the pressure recovered, so maybe the gauge oil
shrank?

More on splitting stone:
https://www.dartmoorcam.co.uk/CAM/SplittingGranite.htm

[David Billington]

Post by David Billington

I doubled it to 200 Lbs, one tick mark,  on a 3/8" thick square of
red oak
in a plastic bag and added water about 20 minutes ago. So far the gauge
needle hasn't moved.
-----------------------
4 hours later, if anything the pressure has decreased by the pointer width.
Into the freezer with it, until I need the space for the kettle of beef stew
I'm cooking.
----------------------------------------
2 more hours, 0F, the pressure is zero and the C clamp isn't tight.
Out to see if the pressure recovers as the gauge warms.
It does, a little.
Either wet wedging doesn't work or I missed something.

Why I asked about the type of oak is that I was told red oak has an open
cell structure and can allow water to wick into the wood easily which
isn't the case with other types of oak, maybe in this case that is
preventing any cellular swelling or allowing any pressure to squeeze the
water out. Can you repeat the test with white oak. I have some English
oak here but my force gauge is out of action until I replace the
loadcell lead.
---------------------------------
My white oak is still in logs so sample prep could take a while and
this is a busy time of year, I need to split and stack next year's
firewood to dry, upgrade a few things on the sawmill and get the logs
out of my front yard. I paused outdoor projects in mid December and
began again in February. The question is academic if steel wedges and
feathers are available.
The gauge has warmed up and the pressure recovered, so maybe the gauge
oil shrank?
https://www.dartmoorcam.co.uk/CAM/SplittingGranite.htm

Did you read that page as they mention the process I mentioned and you
were trying to test.

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by David Billington

Post by Jim Wilkins
I doubled it to 200 Lbs, one tick mark, on a 3/8" thick square of red oak
in a plastic bag and added water about 20 minutes ago. So far the gauge
needle hasn't moved.
-----------------------
4 hours later, if anything the pressure has decreased by the pointer width.
Into the freezer with it, until I need the space for the kettle of beef stew
I'm cooking.
----------------------------------------
2 more hours, 0F, the pressure is zero and the C clamp isn't tight. Out
to see if the pressure recovers as the gauge warms.
It does, a little.
Either wet wedging doesn't work or I missed something.

Why I asked about the type of oak is that I was told red oak has an open
cell structure and can allow water to wick into the wood easily which
isn't the case with other types of oak, maybe in this case that is
preventing any cellular swelling or allowing any pressure to squeeze the
water out. Can you repeat the test with white oak. I have some English
oak here but my force gauge is out of action until I replace the
loadcell lead.
---------------------------------
My white oak is still in logs so sample prep could take a while and this
is a busy time of year, I need to split and stack next year's firewood to
dry, upgrade a few things on the sawmill and get the logs out of my front
yard. I paused outdoor projects in mid December and began again in
February. The question is academic if steel wedges and feathers are
available.
The gauge has warmed up and the pressure recovered, so maybe the gauge oil
shrank?
https://www.dartmoorcam.co.uk/CAM/SplittingGranite.htm

Did you read that page as they mention the process I mentioned and you
were trying to test.
-------------------------------------
Of course, that's why I posted it. I was looking for more detail like
species of wood or hands-on experience, which are usually missing from
accounts of ancient technology, even Heron, Vitruvius and Frontinus. Until
the incomplete Greek temple at Didyma was examined scholars had only guessed
at Greek construction methods. The rough walls of the temple foundation
revealed the geometric layout inscribed full-size on them, to be erased and
lost when the walls were polished. The subtle convex curvature of straight
lines that counters the eye's tendency to distort had been laid out as a
short arc and then the offsets transferred to the full size layout of the
stone work, like copying a wooden ship's hull frames from the half model.
https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/Entasis

Hands-on technique wasn't recorded until the medieval and renaissance books
by Theophilius, Biringuccio, Agricola and Cellini. Before printing literacy
was very unusual, the first Wilkins in the Roanoke Colony, in 1619, became a
plantation owner, judge and member of the House of Burgesses yet couldn't
write his own name.

Supposedly tree roots can split boulders. I pulled a live root out of a
crack and squeezed it with pliers, and found that it was soft and easily
compressed.

MatWeb gives the tensile strength of granite as 7-25MPa, 1-3.6ksi. My wet
oak sample crushes at 400 Lbs from the 0.52" diameter C clamp pad, about
1.9ksi. Maybe it could force apart its own area of granite. Steel wedges
placed and used as directed don't split it easily, the advice is to tap them
all in to the same high pitched Tink and wait.

I suspect that bronze or iron wedges were always used, and wooden ones have
the same validity as needing the urine of a red-headed boy for quenching
steel. Sacrificial wood shims might have served to reduce the high friction
and damage I found with soft iron wedges rubbing on rough rock. A visitor
seeing them after the valuable iron wedges had been removed could have
guessed or been told a tradesmans' idiot-test joke like that the nails in a
box that point away from the wall being built are for the other side.

This experiment showed that my 10,000 Lb hydraulic load cell isn't right for
the this task. One tick mark is 200 Lbs. For critical work it's recommended
to make measurements at around half scale or more.

[Leon Fisk]

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 10:13:18 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Jim Wilkins
Supposedly tree roots can split boulders. I pulled a live root out of a
crack and squeezed it with pliers, and found that it was soft and easily
compressed.

One only has to observe misc plants pushing through pavement to
realize there are some interesting properties involving force
involved...

[Jim Wilkins]

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:ut73f5$3ji4l$***@dont-email.me...

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 10:13:18 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Jim Wilkins
Supposedly tree roots can split boulders. I pulled a live root out of a
crack and squeezed it with pliers, and found that it was soft and easily
compressed.

One only has to observe misc plants pushing through pavement to
realize there are some interesting properties involving force
involved...
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI
---------------------------------------
The condition of our paved and dirt roads during spring thaw/freeze cycles
shows the powerful effects of water without plants being involved. I think
plants merely take advantage of existing opportunity.

On the same line I believed a strong enough wind could drive straws into
tree trunks until I closely examined a tree that had been bent by another
falling onto it. The convex upwind side had many open cracks that closed and
vanished when the tree was released.

[Leon Fisk]

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 12:45:32 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Jim Wilkins
The condition of our paved and dirt roads during spring thaw/freeze cycles
shows the powerful effects of water without plants being involved. I think
plants merely take advantage of existing opportunity.

I usually observe this with relatively new pavement laid down over
an area that had weeds growing but graded off. The "weed" will push the
pavement up, volcano like and continue growing. Some examples of
questionable authenticity:


https://www.dreamstime.com/stock-photo-weed-growing-crack-pavement-green-plant-asphalt-image62240672

https://www.alamy.com/plant-growing-through-pavement-image60063689.html

[Jim Wilkins]

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:ut7cmt$3li6e$***@dont-email.me...

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 12:45:32 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Jim Wilkins
The condition of our paved and dirt roads during spring thaw/freeze cycles
shows the powerful effects of water without plants being involved. I think
plants merely take advantage of existing opportunity.

I usually observe this with relatively new pavement laid down over
an area that had weeds growing but graded off. The "weed" will push the
pavement up, volcano like and continue growing. Some examples of
questionable authenticity:


https://www.dreamstime.com/stock-photo-weed-growing-crack-pavement-green-plant-asphalt-image62240672

https://www.alamy.com/plant-growing-through-pavement-image60063689.html
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

---------------------------------
I haven't personally seen that but I won't deny the possibility. The grass
that tries to grow through joints in my decades old driveway pavement hasn't
succeeded in opening them up. A contractor offered to pretty up the driveway
until I told him I fix cars on it.

Much talk, minimal data:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turgor_pressure

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboo_torture

[Leon Fisk]

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 15:28:35 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Jim Wilkins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turgor_pressure

Some data with footnotes down the page for plants, roots and fungi...

===
"The action of turgor pressure on extensible cell walls is usually said
to be the driving force of growth within the cell.[17] An increase of
turgor pressure causes expansion of cells and extension of apical
cells, pollen tubes, and other plant structures such as root tips. Cell
expansion and an increase in turgor pressure is due to inward diffusion
of water into the cell, and turgor pressure increases due to the
increasing volume of vacuolar sap. A growing root cell's turgor
pressure can be up to 0.6 MPa, which is over three times that of a car
tire. Epidermal cells in a leaf can have pressures ranging from 1.5 to
2.0 MPa.[18] These high pressures can explain why plants can grow
through asphalt and other hard surfaces."
===

I hastily done paving job or hole patch with asphalt during the summer
quite often demonstrates this...

[Jim Wilkins]

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:ut7hlp$3li6e$***@dont-email.me...

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 15:28:35 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Jim Wilkins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turgor_pressure

Some data with footnotes down the page for plants, roots and fungi...

----------------------

Good catch. Botany isn't among my strengths, at least I knew the word.

[Clare Snyder]

Post by Leon Fisk
On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 12:45:32 -0400
<snip>

Post by Jim Wilkins
The condition of our paved and dirt roads during spring thaw/freeze cycles
shows the powerful effects of water without plants being involved. I think
plants merely take advantage of existing opportunity.

I usually observe this with relatively new pavement laid down over
an area that had weeds growing but graded off. The "weed" will push the
pavement up, volcano like and continue growing. Some examples of
https://www.dreamstime.com/stock-photo-weed-growing-crack-pavement-green-plant-asphalt-image62240672
https://www.alamy.com/plant-growing-through-pavement-image60063689.html

They are authentic all right!!! I've seen even worse after some
fly-by-night driveway pavers have "enlarged" a driveway.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

Hi everyone.

Posted at top of thread - wishing to thank everyone who contributed to
this "journey" whose extent (effort, duration) I never anticipated.

Here is the outcome - what a surprise. In a very pleasant way!
There is hope this is "for real".
I handed the equipment to another person who came by to see how I as
getting on, and trying it he concurs - it works and it is to be hoped
this is "for real".

http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/240314_rocksplit/240314_rocksplit_drill_feathers.html
"Rock-split granite with "cordless" SDS drill and "feathers""

Well would you ever have believed it...?!

Best wishes,
Rich Smith

-----------------------------------------
Congratulations on your success! You are a skilled problem solver.

The shims / feathers are soft, the wedges need to be hardened and tempered,
as I found out with shop-made ones. A horizontal bandsaw can cut the taper
angles or a smith can forge them from silver steel or old truck coil
springs.

You might consider my alternate method if the boulders don't have far to go.
I also have largeish boulders to move over uneven ground, at least to the
trails where I can hoist and tow them on my 1 ton shop crane trailer. Before
acquiring the drill I used a home-made gantry hoist of 3" x 8' channel iron
with a 1 ton trolley, supported on various improvised legs of wooden A
frames or pipe tripods. The wooden legs had trailer caster jacks as
retractable landing gear to easily move the gantry by myself with the load
lowered, where the ground was fairly level. On steeper slopes the low end of
the track hung from a pipe tripod, which was harder to move. The legs on
mine swing freely at the top connection which allows walking one leg at a
time and adjusting for slope or bad footing.

The wheels of the Harbor Freight trolley were slightly too large for the 3"
channel so I turned them down on the lathe. 4" channel takes them as-is, and
has a better strength margin / less flex at full load. At the time I had
only the 3", surplus pallet rack shelf supports.

I just discovered that the world's oldest still-working powered vehicle is
an 1831 Stephenson-built locomotive in the Smithsonian museum nicknamed the
John Bull.
Here it's running (at reduced boiler pressure) on its 150th anniversary:
Loading Image...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bull
John Doe for an unspecified American is from the same source.

[Richard Smith]

Hello again all. Another update:

http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/240314_rocksplit/240321_rocksplit_dr_fth_conf.html
"Rock-split granite boulders confirmed"

"Batching" - all equipment works fine and good "production-rate".
Seems "proven".
Very unexpected bonus.
Plans now on what end-point sought for mine with clearing boulders.

All seeming brilliant.
Rich S