Discussion:
adjustable square for SHS / box sections
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Richard Smith
2025-02-08 06:06:18 UTC
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Hi all

Working with
Rectangular Hollow Sections
Square Hollow Sections
box sections
...

The rounded corners make using an adjustable square / sliding square
problematic.

Given number of machine parts I have to make quite accurately based on
SHS's, thinking of a tool specially optimised for marking distances
from the surfaces.
ie. whatever presents as "top", slide along marking down the "sides".
Typically the middle of the "sides".

Accuracy - well using a chalk / soapstone is plenty good enough.
Have to bring magnetic-base drill to the job most of the time, and
with using a shell-cutter / trepanning cutter with a central "pin" to
locate on the centre-pop - accuracy there is less than chalking gives.
So - would hold thing in place and chalk-mark.

I could trim offcuts of angle-iron to make single-dimension tools -
eg. marks 25mm from "top" surface.
Advantage with this or "settable" tool is spin around 180deg and mark
the other "side" and the two heights/levels should match-up.

Hope described this well enough.

Best wishes
Snag
2025-02-08 12:56:36 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Richard Smith
Hi all
Working with
Rectangular Hollow Sections
Square Hollow Sections
box sections
...
The rounded corners make using an adjustable square / sliding square
problematic.
Given number of machine parts I have to make quite accurately based on
SHS's, thinking of a tool specially optimised for marking distances
from the surfaces.
ie. whatever presents as "top", slide along marking down the "sides".
Typically the middle of the "sides".
Accuracy - well using a chalk / soapstone is plenty good enough.
Have to bring magnetic-base drill to the job most of the time, and
with using a shell-cutter / trepanning cutter with a central "pin" to
locate on the centre-pop - accuracy there is less than chalking gives.
So - would hold thing in place and chalk-mark.
I could trim offcuts of angle-iron to make single-dimension tools -
eg. marks 25mm from "top" surface.
Advantage with this or "settable" tool is spin around 180deg and mark
the other "side" and the two heights/levels should match-up.
Hope described this well enough.
Best wishes
I've seen combination squares with a wide flange on the head that
will do what you want . Here's a link to one on Amazon , kinda pricey
but you might be able to find one cheaper .

https://primeweld.com/products/lagesse-products-lasquare-12-combination-square-stainless-steel-blade-aluminum-square-head
--
Snag
We live in a time where intelligent people
are being silenced so that
stupid people won't be offended.
Bob La Londe
2025-02-08 16:29:23 UTC
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Post by Richard Smith
Hi all
Working with
Rectangular Hollow Sections
Square Hollow Sections
box sections
...
The rounded corners make using an adjustable square / sliding square
problematic.
Given number of machine parts I have to make quite accurately based on
SHS's, thinking of a tool specially optimised for marking distances
from the surfaces.
ie. whatever presents as "top", slide along marking down the "sides".
Typically the middle of the "sides".
Accuracy - well using a chalk / soapstone is plenty good enough.
Have to bring magnetic-base drill to the job most of the time, and
with using a shell-cutter / trepanning cutter with a central "pin" to
locate on the centre-pop - accuracy there is less than chalking gives.
So - would hold thing in place and chalk-mark.
I could trim offcuts of angle-iron to make single-dimension tools -
eg. marks 25mm from "top" surface.
Advantage with this or "settable" tool is spin around 180deg and mark
the other "side" and the two heights/levels should match-up.
Hope described this well enough.
Best wishes
  I've seen combination squares with a wide flange on the head that
will do what you want . Here's a link to one on Amazon , kinda pricey
but you might be able to find one cheaper .
https://primeweld.com/products/lagesse-products-lasquare-12-combination-
square-stainless-steel-blade-aluminum-square-head
Exactly what I was thinking of. Might even be able to swap out to a
longer scale if needed. I had (maybe still have somewhere) a
combination square with an 18 inch scale.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
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www.avg.com
Leon Fisk
2025-02-08 13:03:34 UTC
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On Sat, 08 Feb 2025 06:06:18 +0000
Post by Richard Smith
Hi all
Working with
Rectangular Hollow Sections
Square Hollow Sections
box sections
...
The rounded corners make using an adjustable square / sliding square
problematic.
<snip>

Not following you exactly,.. some links that may help or give you some
more ideas.

Fireball Tools has some really innovative squares for welding and metal
working:

https://fireballtool.com/products/mega-square

and Strong Hand Tools has similar stuff:

https://stronghandtools.com
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI
Jim Wilkins
2025-02-08 13:37:23 UTC
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"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

Hi all

Working with
Rectangular Hollow Sections
Square Hollow Sections
box sections
...

The rounded corners make using an adjustable square / sliding square
problematic.

Given number of machine parts I have to make quite accurately based on
SHS's, thinking of a tool specially optimised for marking distances
from the surfaces.
ie. whatever presents as "top", slide along marking down the "sides".
Typically the middle of the "sides".

Accuracy - well using a chalk / soapstone is plenty good enough.
Have to bring magnetic-base drill to the job most of the time, and
with using a shell-cutter / trepanning cutter with a central "pin" to
locate on the centre-pop - accuracy there is less than chalking gives.
So - would hold thing in place and chalk-mark.

I could trim offcuts of angle-iron to make single-dimension tools -
eg. marks 25mm from "top" surface.
Advantage with this or "settable" tool is spin around 180deg and mark
the other "side" and the two heights/levels should match-up.

Hope described this well enough.
------------------------
Compact versions of a carpenter's bulky framing square are called "L
Squares".

I use a double or combination (90+45) square with the scale protruding the
required distance and scribe across the end. It can be held vertical to
bridge the rounded corner. This type and size is pocketable.
https://www.globalindustrial.com/p/igg-high-precision-double-square-w-4-inch-steel-blade-black?

For higher accuracy they can be set with dial calipers. 4" ones are fairly
safe in a shirt pocket.
https://www.penntoolco.com/precise-white-face-dial-caliper-0-4-inch-range-spt-004/?

Marking the presumed center from both sides gives two closely spaced lines
straddling the true center. At that point I guess and punch it.

A "prick" punch can locate the crossing of fine scribed lines to 0.1mm or so
with care and a magnifier, or by feel along the line. Then "center" punch
the dimple to better locate the drill bit. These make a good starting hole
for larger bits.
https://www.amazon.com/Pieces-Center-60-Degree-Countersink-Metalworking/dp/B08ZYXXX1Y/ref=asc_df_B08ZYXXX1Y?

Long center drills transfer accurate hole locations to the other side of
hollow sections.
https://drillsandcutters.com/5x6-extra-long-combined-drill-bit-and-countersink-qualtech/?

My scriber is a broken tap ground to a fine point, pressed into a hex
standoff handle and covered with heatshrink for grip. The HSS is less
brittle and easier to resharpen than carbide. In aluminium or plastic it
doubles as the prick punch.

A light weight portable drilling guide like this lets a drill bit (or
pointed tap) center itself on a punch mark. I don't own a mag base drill and
clamp the guide to the beam to drill the full sized hole square, well enough
for 3/8" bolts in 0.375" holes through both flanges of 4" channel. The bolt
shanks measured 0.372". That was the gantry trolley beam center splice
assembly.
https://www.amazon.com/Milescraft-1318-DrillMate-Drill-Guide/dp/B014A1Z92I/ref=asc_df_B014A1Z92I?

Machinists working with clean metal use bluing to make scribed lines more
visible. Sticky paper labels work pretty well for pencil or scribed lines on
wire-brushed rusty steel and surfaces that shouldn't be scratched. I save my
dropped or otherwise less dependable calipers to use as scribers.

The cast or molded enclosures I mount snap-in meters in are too flexible in
the milling vise to mill accurately with a DRO, scribing locates features on
the uncompressed surfaces.

When working on large stock outdoors I keep my tools safe and handy on a
small wheeled cart or folding camp table. This is my most heat-resistant and
convenient to carry with one spare finger.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Ozark-Trail-Aluminum-Camping-Table-Silver/531930310?
jsw
Jim Wilkins
2025-02-08 17:24:19 UTC
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Post by Richard Smith
The rounded corners make using an adjustable square / sliding square
problematic.
Woodworking scribers and marking gauges with wider bases might work.
Richard Smith
2025-02-09 08:10:26 UTC
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Thanks everyone for all tips.

One is, given saw cutting long lengths of "box" is accurate transversely
but less so "vertically" due to spring in section and distance outrigger
is from saw, position "flash" at "side" as sawn so have "square" end
as do "measure along" direction AND drill can go through both sides of
"box" on drill-press, not risking hitting "flash" on opposite side.

I will look if adjustable square with a wide "foot" is available. Would
need a "foot" about 2inches / 50mm wide for when doing big Rectangular
Hollow Sections with big corner radii.

Bigger overall point - thanks a lot everyone.

Regards,
Rich S
Jim Wilkins
2025-02-09 13:15:29 UTC
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"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

Thanks everyone for all tips.

One is, given saw cutting long lengths of "box" is accurate transversely
but less so "vertically" due to spring in section and distance outrigger
is from saw, position "flash" at "side" as sawn so have "square" end
as do "measure along" direction AND drill can go through both sides of
"box" on drill-press, not risking hitting "flash" on opposite side.

I will look if adjustable square with a wide "foot" is available. Would
need a "foot" about 2inches / 50mm wide for when doing big Rectangular
Hollow Sections with big corner radii.

Bigger overall point - thanks a lot everyone.

Regards,
Rich S

------------
You could make a wider foot from flat stock clamped to the square with
screws and large washers cut D shaped.

My procedure for cutting short sections from long lengths is to first
balance them on the bandsaw table, then place a Toyota Land Cruiser
telescoping screw jack under the end. When the stock is moved to cut the
support will nearly balance it and the vertical force at the saw vise will
be minimal. If I had two finely adjustable supports the second would go
under the end to be cut off and I would sight down the stock to lift out any
sag.

I work on uneven surfaces outdoors and can't permanently set up an
outrigger, plus the roller stands and conveyer table I have are for a wood
saw and don't adjust low enough. The bandsaw had larger wheels added to roll
to the job, which may be on a dirt path in the forest. It's a 4"x6" which is
light enough to move if not the best to use.

The one time I had to cut full mill lengths of 4" square tube and a W10x33
beam (W250x49) I used the hydraulic platform stacker to lift and level it on
the saw table.
Jim Wilkins
2025-02-09 16:17:33 UTC
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"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:voa9s4$lg7q$***@dont-email.me...

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...
One is, given saw cutting long lengths of "box" is accurate transversely
but less so "vertically" due to spring in section and distance outrigger
is from saw, position "flash" at "side" as sawn so have "square" end
as do "measure along" direction AND drill can go through both sides of
"box" on drill-press, not risking hitting "flash" on opposite side.
------------------------------

The base on my 4x6 horizontal bandsaw can twist from floor/pavement
unevenness and make the blade cut unsquare vertically. I fix it by checking
blade rise and fall with a square clamped upright while moving the base feet
around until the blade descends adequately parallel to the square for the
job, whether cutting for machine parts or firewood.

The general solution for permanently installed machine tools is to level the
machines' working surfaces, the level and plumb bob being inexpensive
instruments that very accurately indicate direction.

An expensive one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrocompass

Recent microelectronic devices can sense the direction of gravity in your
cell phone or a Segway.

My South Bend lathe has an alternate method that works on a ship. The
tailstock end of the bed is on a lengthwise pivot and restrained by
setscrews. Loosening them lets the ways untwist, then the screws can be
gently run in to contact.
Bob La Londe
2025-02-09 16:45:55 UTC
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Post by Richard Smith
Thanks everyone for all tips.
One is, given saw cutting long lengths of "box" is accurate transversely
but less so "vertically" due to spring in section and distance outrigger
is from saw, position "flash" at "side" as sawn so have "square" end
as do "measure along" direction AND drill can go through both sides of
"box" on drill-press, not risking hitting "flash" on opposite side.
I will look if adjustable square with a wide "foot" is available. Would
need a "foot" about 2inches / 50mm wide for when doing big Rectangular
Hollow Sections with big corner radii.
Bigger overall point - thanks a lot everyone.
Regards,
Rich S
I could make one, but shipping across the pond would probably be a deal
breaker.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jim Wilkins
2025-02-09 17:13:57 UTC
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Post by Richard Smith
Thanks everyone for all tips.
One is, given saw cutting long lengths of "box" is accurate transversely
but less so "vertically" due to spring in section and distance outrigger
is from saw, position "flash" at "side" as sawn so have "square" end
as do "measure along" direction AND drill can go through both sides of
"box" on drill-press, not risking hitting "flash" on opposite side.
I will look if adjustable square with a wide "foot" is available. Would
need a "foot" about 2inches / 50mm wide for when doing big Rectangular
Hollow Sections with big corner radii.
Bigger overall point - thanks a lot everyone.
Regards,
Rich S
I could make one, but shipping across the pond would probably be a deal
breaker.
--
Bob La Londe

----------------------------------------------

Making a wider "overshoe" would be simple on a milling machine and not too
hard with only a bandsaw and drill press.
Bob La Londe
2025-02-09 17:39:35 UTC
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Post by Bob La Londe
Post by Richard Smith
Thanks everyone for all tips.
One is, given saw cutting long lengths of "box" is accurate transversely
but less so "vertically" due to spring in section and distance outrigger
is from saw, position "flash" at "side" as sawn so have "square" end
as do "measure along" direction AND drill can go through both sides of
"box" on drill-press, not risking hitting "flash" on opposite side.
I will look if adjustable square with a wide "foot" is available.  Would
need a "foot" about 2inches / 50mm wide for when doing big Rectangular
Hollow Sections with big corner radii.
Bigger overall point - thanks a lot everyone.
Regards,
Rich S
I could make one, but shipping across the pond would probably be a deal
breaker.
Yep. I read your other reply. No big deal for even a hobby machinist.

What he is doing is pretty coarse I think. Could probably do it with an
old wood workers marking gage and a nail for a scribe. Hundreds of
years of fine wood working was done that way with a story board to
repeat measurements from piece to piece for "production" work.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Richard Smith
2025-02-09 17:52:57 UTC
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Hello everyone
Your various ideas caused a thought to "gel".
I will try this.
Get a smooth piece of plate a bit wider than the box-section.
Place your "ordinary" adjustable square on it, at the edge.
Make the blade/rule of the adjustable square protrude beneath the plate
lower surface by the amount you want to mark-off - eg. 25mm.
Bring "free" plate's edge to align with "side" surface of box you want
to mark, with the already-set adjustable square on it, and with hand
pressure keeping eveything touching where it should, slide along with
chalk under tip of adjustable-square blade.
Spin plate with adjustable square through 180deg and do same marking
down other side.
Those "heights" on the two "sides" will agree - probably the most
important thing.
Mark distances from the end of the box at which holes are and centre-pop
at the intersections.
Drill.
Done.

Hope this makes sense...

Will see whether this works - and report back, volente dio.
Jim Wilkins
2025-02-09 19:54:34 UTC
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"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

Hello everyone
Your various ideas caused a thought to "gel".
I will try this.
Get a smooth piece of plate a bit wider than the box-section.
Place your "ordinary" adjustable square on it, at the edge.
Make the blade/rule of the adjustable square protrude beneath the plate
lower surface by the amount you want to mark-off - eg. 25mm.
Bring "free" plate's edge to align with "side" surface of box you want
to mark, with the already-set adjustable square on it, and with hand
pressure keeping eveything touching where it should, slide along with
chalk under tip of adjustable-square blade.
Spin plate with adjustable square through 180deg and do same marking
down other side.
Those "heights" on the two "sides" will agree - probably the most
important thing.
Mark distances from the end of the box at which holes are and centre-pop
at the intersections.
Drill.
Done.

Hope this makes sense...

Will see whether this works - and report back, volente dio.

--------------------------------
It should, you've given yourself a reference surface.

Depending on desired accuracy and repeatability (Chalk??) you could fasten a
50mm strip of the plate to the vertical on the square with double stick
tape.

A possibly less fumbly approach would be to use hermaphrodite calipers to
scribe from the plate's inner surface, which permits direct length transfer
and saves an element of alignment.
https://www.kbctools.com/itemdetail/1-804-457?gQT=1

Pointed dividers would work, hermaphrodites folded shut are safer in your
pocket. If the tool is stainless you could use a magnet as the plate.

If you mostly need the center this should help.
https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-center-finding-ruler-set-3-pc./t34082?

A good trick for dividing off-sized stock in half, thirds, quarters etc is
to angle a ruler (scale) across the width of the stock with the ruler's ends
(or other marks) at the edges. If for instance you place a 6" rule on 4"
stock with its ends at the edges, the center of the stock will be at 3". 1/3
and 2/3 will be at 2" and 4". Remember to transfer the center parallel to
the edges, not square to the ruler.

I center holes in mounting brackets etc by balancing a 6" ruler across stock
in the milling vise and equalizing the edge readings from 3", like the
center finding ruler but counting backwards on the 6" end. This gets me
centered within a millimeter or better on rough edged or compressible stock.
As with the previous trick the ruler doesn't have to be exactly squared.

A primitive but effective way is to roughly center a pencil point near the
center with your little finger sliding on the edge of the stock, then repeat
from the other side. You can refine the guess between the two lines and
repeat. Chalk is good for circling and not losing a location with finer
marks, like a fine point Sharpie.

I'll add here that placing a ruler marked to 0.1" on the stock lets me
locate from the 0,0 reference corner with the mill's table dials without
counting turns.
jsw
Jim Wilkins
2025-02-10 13:22:55 UTC
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"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:voap8m$od6b$***@dont-email.me...

What he is doing is pretty coarse I think. Could probably do it with an
old wood workers marking gage and a nail for a scribe. Hundreds of
years of fine wood working was done that way with a story board to
repeat measurements from piece to piece for "production" work.
Bob La Londe
------------------------------------
I learned the old methods from a semi-retired Swedish cabinet maker in 7th
grade. One friend's father was an architect, another's building a wooden
sailboat, and mine was remodeling old houses, so we all paid close attention
and competed with each other. The standards of accuracy were bright light
leaking through gaps between the work and a straightedge or the blade of a
square, and a press fit that holds together, both difficult with worn
metalworking machines. In 8th grade we took Drafting and repeated the
competition for top grades. When I learned machine design and construction I
needed (and received) no instruction while working in the Drafting
department. The lessons also helped when I went into CAD circuit board
layout and the design of RF-tight enclosures.

Recently I figured out how and practiced cutting large wood beams with a
pruning bow saw as smoothly and squarely as with a machine. That went faster
than the attempt to align my bandsaw and conveyer table on rough sloping
ground. The weight of the beams threw off the alignment.
Richard Smith
2025-02-10 20:35:51 UTC
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Hi all - update Monday 10 February 2025 20:29

I found some Ali extruded angle, hence sharp inside corner.
Trimmed one side to give 25mm down side of from surface the angle si
resting on.
Took a bit of fiddling and measuring, but once made, blessing.
Then my two adjustable squares went to mark in the length direction
where the holes go.
Every indication is it's very consistent and is accurate.

The important things are
* that the holes on opposite sides line-up
* that the holes at at specified centres.
All others are significantly less critical.

With the angle "measure" having chalked one side I spun the angle
around so it sat on the same "top face" but extended down the other
side.

The method mentioned seems to meet the requirements.
Jim Wilkins
2025-02-10 22:30:28 UTC
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"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

Hi all - update Monday 10 February 2025 20:29

I found some Ali extruded angle, hence sharp inside corner.
Trimmed one side to give 25mm down side of from surface the angle si
resting on.
Took a bit of fiddling and measuring, but once made, blessing.
Then my two adjustable squares went to mark in the length direction
where the holes go.
Every indication is it's very consistent and is accurate.

The important things are
* that the holes on opposite sides line-up
* that the holes at at specified centres.
All others are significantly less critical.

With the angle "measure" having chalked one side I spun the angle
around so it sat on the same "top face" but extended down the other
side.

The method mentioned seems to meet the requirements.

--------------------------------
The test is to use it to draw all the way around and see if the start and
end meet.
Richard Smith
2025-02-11 07:24:04 UTC
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Permalink
The "angle-aluminum" with its "drop-down" from the "top" surface marks
down from that top surface. This is a longitudinal mark. It will
always "match-up" (?).

I am painfully aware that these best-meant descriptions, where you'd
want a sketch, can be impenetrable.

Best wishes,
Jim Wilkins
2025-02-11 13:42:18 UTC
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Permalink
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

The "angle-aluminum" with its "drop-down" from the "top" surface marks
down from that top surface. This is a longitudinal mark. It will
always "match-up" (?).

I am painfully aware that these best-meant descriptions, where you'd
want a sketch, can be impenetrable.

Best wishes,

------------------------------------------------

I can visualize a solution that fits the description. I post here for
practice describing with only words.
Jim Wilkins
2025-02-11 15:40:03 UTC
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Permalink
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

The "angle-aluminum" with its "drop-down" from the "top" surface marks
down from that top surface. This is a longitudinal mark. It will
always "match-up" (?).

I am painfully aware that these best-meant descriptions, where you'd
want a sketch, can be impenetrable.

Best wishes,
-------------------------------------

Similar to the miter guide for a table saw.
Richard Smith
2025-02-12 05:48:29 UTC
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Permalink
I sometimes do my "temporary webpages".
Affirmation that they serve well.
It is quick to sketch, photo, and put in a "temporary pages" section of
the/my website. Delete after say 6 months in general clear-outs.
Best wishes
Jim Wilkins
2025-02-12 14:20:58 UTC
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Permalink
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

I sometimes do my "temporary webpages".
Affirmation that they serve well.
It is quick to sketch, photo, and put in a "temporary pages" section of
the/my website. Delete after say 6 months in general clear-outs.
Best wishes
-----------------------------------
I think learning (struggling) to explain purely in words is good practice. I
was terrible at expressing myself until I began posting on Usenet to readers
who weren't grading or paying for what I wrote.

When I was writing test procedure manuals in Wordpad I embedded sketches and
marked-up photos indicating rework and electronic component locations but I
can't and don't think I've needed to do that for hobbyist level info here.
When something is too concise to be clear I can use the feedback.
Richard Smith
2025-02-09 17:44:33 UTC
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Post by Bob La Londe
Post by Richard Smith
Thanks everyone for all tips.
One is, given saw cutting long lengths of "box" is accurate
transversely
but less so "vertically" due to spring in section and distance outrigger
is from saw, position "flash" at "side" as sawn so have "square" end
as do "measure along" direction AND drill can go through both sides of
"box" on drill-press, not risking hitting "flash" on opposite side.
I will look if adjustable square with a wide "foot" is available.
Would
need a "foot" about 2inches / 50mm wide for when doing big Rectangular
Hollow Sections with big corner radii.
Bigger overall point - thanks a lot everyone.
Regards,
Rich S
I could make one, but shipping across the pond would probably be a
deal breaker.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
Thanks for supportive wishes.
Appreciated anyway.
See my post responding to all.
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