weld - steel 10mm thk - GMAW spray transfer

[Richard Smith]

Hello all
Thanks for support and encouragement over the decades.
Latest weld - first "heavy" thickness in this job.
Is 10mm leg-length ("z10"). On 10mm thickness steel plate.
Is a critical weld.

http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/welding/jobs/241014_cnwl/250215_mc_welds_heavy.html

Links to comment of welding machine, welding setup, etc.
http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/welding/jobs/241014_cnwl/250215_mc_320i_weldmc.html
Best estimate - about 270A, 28.5V
I say that because 270A spray gives a 6mm leg-length fillet weld.
(lowest spray at about 240A gives about 5.5mm leg-length fillet weld ??)
As I explain - not sure if what machine reports is accurate.

The shielding gas, Ar-12.5%CO2-2%O2, is and does everything I want it
to. Including "clean" spray transfer welding condition.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

Hello all
Thanks for support and encouragement over the decades.
Latest weld - first "heavy" thickness in this job.
Is 10mm leg-length ("z10"). On 10mm thickness steel plate.
Is a critical weld.

http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/welding/jobs/241014_cnwl/250215_mc_welds_heavy.html

Links to comment of welding machine, welding setup, etc.
http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/welding/jobs/241014_cnwl/250215_mc_320i_weldmc.html
Best estimate - about 270A, 28.5V
I say that because 270A spray gives a 6mm leg-length fillet weld.
(lowest spray at about 240A gives about 5.5mm leg-length fillet weld ??)
As I explain - not sure if what machine reports is accurate.

The shielding gas, Ar-12.5%CO2-2%O2, is and does everything I want it
to. Including "clean" spray transfer welding condition.
--------------------------------------
Nice!
Do you think MIG is better / worse / just different from 7018 for jobs like
that? I weld outdoors.

[Richard Smith]

Post by Richard Smith
...
...
to. Including "clean" spray transfer welding condition.
--------------------------------------
Nice!
Do you think MIG is better / worse / just different from 7018 for jobs
like that? I weld outdoors.

Indoors, not vertical welding - good MIG wins by a long way.
This weld seen in the pic. on the webpage is exactly "it".
With spray arc you get plenty of fusion, etc.

Outdoors, has to be stick / 7018 typically.
Only weather-proof process.
Is nice, but is slower.

[Richard Smith]

"Jim Wilkins" <***@gmail.com> writes:

...

Post by Jim Wilkins
Nice!
Do you think MIG is better / worse / just different from 7018 for jobs
like that? I weld outdoors.

Jim, everyone

Reality for most - first response is from "industrial" situation with
3-phase power, etc.

Second response from anyone working in a shed, in your yard, etc. Hi
everyone {wave} !
NOTHING beats the fusion power per Amp of a 7018 rod.
You can weld any thickness (no upper limit) of steel from a wall-socket
electric power supply with 7018. Certainly in the UK with 13A from a
240V supply. You can run a 3.2mm / 1/8th-inch 7018 to max. current from
that domestic wall-socket, especially with an inverter welding set (very
efficient - high-90's% of power goes into the welding arc).

So you have to keep running welds until you build up the weld size you
need. But you can get there with what you have.

7018 properties are really good. Is both tough and strong.

So I offer another completely different response.
Which is equally true.

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Richard Smith
...

Post by Jim Wilkins
Nice!
Do you think MIG is better / worse / just different from 7018 for jobs
like that? I weld outdoors.

Jim, everyone
Reality for most - first response is from "industrial" situation with
3-phase power, etc.
Second response from anyone working in a shed, in your yard, etc. Hi
everyone {wave} !
NOTHING beats the fusion power per Amp of a 7018 rod.
You can weld any thickness (no upper limit) of steel from a wall-socket
electric power supply with 7018. Certainly in the UK with 13A from a
240V supply. You can run a 3.2mm / 1/8th-inch 7018 to max. current from
that domestic wall-socket, especially with an inverter welding set (very
efficient - high-90's% of power goes into the welding arc).
So you have to keep running welds until you build up the weld size you
need. But you can get there with what you have.
7018 properties are really good. Is both tough and strong.
So I offer another completely different response.
Which is equally true.

Makes me wish there was a thumbs up button. I appreciate you providing
alternatives to welders most of us can't afford.

You may under evaluate the garden shed welder a little though. A lot of
us are running a little more than that. Most guys who are half serious
garden shed (more likely carriage house(garage)) welders are running a
200-250 amp machine off a 230V 50 amp dryer outlet, or they have
installed a larger breaker just for their welding machine. My Miller
212 says it really should be on 60 amp circuit, but I have it on a 50,
because it was convenient. Most of my welders can plug into the same
outlet.

Sure there are plenty of little 150/180 amp machines out there for light
gage work (I have one of those as well), but there are plenty of home
shop guys running a little more than that.

While I won't do anything but proper setup on the welding table to do it
with the 212 in straight MIG welding the application table says it will
run 3/8 mild steel. I won't show my welds because my fragile ego
couldn't take the criticism, but I've welded 1/4 and 3/8 wall box tube
to solid steel round bar. The convenience hitch (moves my gooseneck and
tow trailers around the property) I use on the back off the little
tractor (snaps into the quick hitch) is made with such welds. I
wouldn't have made it outdoors or in vertical or overhead positions, but
it has stood the test of time.

If I have to weld outdoors and in awkward positions I tend to run flux
core gasless wire instead. That's what I keep in the little WeldMark
(Hobart) machine.

My first (arc) welder was a little Lincoln tombstone that I struggled
with. I have since learned it was likely as much the machine as it was
me, but I still tend to shy away from stick, even though I now have
decent 200 amp AC/DC machine (my TIG power supply) that should run it
better than that old AC cracker box.

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Richard Smith
...

Post by Jim Wilkins
Nice!
Do you think MIG is better / worse / just different from 7018 for jobs
like that? I weld outdoors.

Jim, everyone
Reality for most - first response is from "industrial" situation with
3-phase power, etc.
Second response from anyone working in a shed, in your yard, etc. Hi
everyone {wave} !
NOTHING beats the fusion power per Amp of a 7018 rod.
You can weld any thickness (no upper limit) of steel from a wall-socket
electric power supply with 7018. Certainly in the UK with 13A from a
240V supply. You can run a 3.2mm / 1/8th-inch 7018 to max. current from
that domestic wall-socket, especially with an inverter welding set (very
efficient - high-90's% of power goes into the welding arc).
So you have to keep running welds until you build up the weld size you
need. But you can get there with what you have.
7018 properties are really good. Is both tough and strong.
So I offer another completely different response.
Which is equally true.

Makes me wish there was a thumbs up button. I appreciate you providing
alternatives to welders most of us can't afford.

You may under evaluate the garden shed welder a little though. A lot of
us are running a little more than that. Most guys who are half serious
garden shed (more likely carriage house(garage)) welders are running a
200-250 amp machine off a 230V 50 amp dryer outlet, or they have
installed a larger breaker just for their welding machine. My Miller
212 says it really should be on 60 amp circuit, but I have it on a 50,
because it was convenient. Most of my welders can plug into the same
outlet. ...
------------------------
I have a weatherproof 240V/50A outlet for welding in the driveway and could
pull 200A from the panel, which was sized for electric heat.

Is there a difference in how the structure should be designed for stick vs
spray MIG? For instance should the welded subassemblies be of limited size
and have means provided to lift and rotate them to level the joints?

This book describes constructing the 300 ton deck house for a naval
destroyer upside down for easier welding, then scribing and cutting its
bottom edge to fit the deck.
https://www.amazon.com/Yard-Building-Destroyer-Bath-Works/dp/0060929634

I visited the place but was only allowed into the older wooden ship
facility, kept as a museum. Likewise when the Portsmouth NH submarine
construction yard held its 200th anniversary open house the more interesting
buildings were closed. I did tour the machine shop and a missile boat
(boomer).

[Richard Smith]

Jim - You'd more avoid positional welding with solid-wire GMAW. You'd
want to turn the work much more than with "stick" (SMAW) where
vertical-up welds are very doable. Different prep. angles? You'd have
to ask someone more streetwise than me...

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

Jim - You'd more avoid positional welding with solid-wire GMAW. You'd
want to turn the work much more than with "stick" (SMAW) where
vertical-up welds are very doable. Different prep. angles? You'd have
to ask someone more streetwise than me...

---------------------------------
Almost my only use for my little MIG has been patching rust holes in
fenders, which I usually want to remain vertical. The exception was plug
welds in spotweld cutter holes to attach a replacement radiator support.

In night school I practiced vertical up with solid wire MIG on their big
Miller. I could do it but no one would hire me to.

[Bob La Londe]

Jim - You'd more avoid positional welding with solid-wire GMAW.  You'd
want to turn the work much more than with "stick" (SMAW) where
vertical-up welds are very doable.  Different prep. angles?  You'd have
to ask someone more streetwise than me...
---------------------------------
Almost my only use for my little MIG has been patching rust holes in
fenders, which I usually want to remain vertical. The exception was plug
welds in spotweld cutter holes to attach a replacement radiator support.
In night school I practiced vertical up with solid wire MIG on their big
Miller. I could do it but no one would hire me to.

Vertical MIG is a skill. I can do it with FCAW (and overhead)
marginally, but not so much with GMAW. I pretty much leave GMAW to
welding table assembly work. Its pretty, and needs little or no
cleanup, but when an assembly starts getting unweildy and I can no
longer put it in the easy position I often switch to FCAW.

You should have learned to weld upside down underwater. They would have
hired you to do that.

No where in the heck did I put my big heavy die grinder?

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Jim Wilkins
In night school I practiced vertical up with solid wire MIG on their big
Miller. I could do it but no one would hire me to.

You should have learned to weld upside down underwater. They would have
hired you to do that.
---------------------
I worked with an engineer and former diver and saw what the conditions had
done to his brain. He told me stories of the Andrea Doria project, such as
who a shark ate just after they appeared in the film.

Practicing these crafts reminded me of how much I liked my day job, quietly
sitting at a lab bench creating exotic electronic gizmos or programs on
demand, such as a portable Rubidium atomic clock I called the world's
biggest, fastest wristwatch. Surprisingly for an Air Force project it wasn't
the most expensive. It was for receiving secret messages from far out in
space. I can't say more.

I spent today running laptops on solar power, refining the 2024 updates to a
spreadsheet I created to figure my taxes. For the last few years it has
matched my accountant sister's H&R Block results.

[Richard Smith]

Post by Richard Smith
Jim - You'd more avoid positional welding with solid-wire GMAW. You'd
want to turn the work much more than with "stick" (SMAW) where
vertical-up welds are very doable. Different prep. angles? You'd have
to ask someone more streetwise than me...
---------------------------------
Almost my only use for my little MIG has been patching rust holes in
fenders, which I usually want to remain vertical. The exception was
plug welds in spotweld cutter holes to attach a replacement radiator
support.
In night school I practiced vertical up with solid wire MIG on their
big Miller. I could do it but no one would hire me to.

Bob gets there first - pretty vertical-up MIG isn't easy.
I got asked to do them even as the agency temp. because although not
pretty they were vertical-up and it was obvious you could trust your life on them.

BTW MIG vertical-up - initial set by getting a good bead-on-plate weld
on 3mm plate / thick sheet "on the flat" - see correct bead formation
and heat patina on the rear face - then you will be very close to the
correct condition for v-up MIG on thick plate.

Straight to v-up on thk plt with unknown MIG machien with no Amps and
Volts revealed is too many variables... 2 steps 3mm plt on-flat then
try v-up and fine-tune is much more controlled and keeps things
"tighter-in" on a planned path.

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Richard Smith
Jim - You'd more avoid positional welding with solid-wire GMAW. You'd
want to turn the work much more than with "stick" (SMAW) where
vertical-up welds are very doable. Different prep. angles? You'd have
to ask someone more streetwise than me...
---------------------------------
Almost my only use for my little MIG has been patching rust holes in
fenders, which I usually want to remain vertical. The exception was
plug welds in spotweld cutter holes to attach a replacement radiator
support.
In night school I practiced vertical up with solid wire MIG on their
big Miller. I could do it but no one would hire me to.

Bob gets there first - pretty vertical-up MIG isn't easy.
I got asked to do them even as the agency temp. because although not
pretty they were vertical-up and it was obvious you could trust your life on
them.

BTW MIG vertical-up - initial set by getting a good bead-on-plate weld
on 3mm plate / thick sheet "on the flat" - see correct bead formation
and heat patina on the rear face - then you will be very close to the
correct condition for v-up MIG on thick plate.

Straight to v-up on thk plt with unknown MIG machien with no Amps and
Volts revealed is too many variables... 2 steps 3mm plt on-flat then
try v-up and fine-tune is much more controlled and keeps things
"tighter-in" on a planned path.

--------------------------------------

What I learned from that MIG exercise was to provide lifting capability in
my welding setup to make repositioning easier. The platform lifter works
pretty well, it's compact and the platform can hoist work slung below it and
raise or lower for work suspended from above by a temporary jib crane or a
tripod.

They are also called stackers. Mine cost $10 plus some repair work. A lever
chain hoist substitutes for the hydraulic cylinder and can be operated from
all around, unlike the foot pump. Mainly it raises the carburetors etc of
outdoor equipment to convenient sitting or standing height. The platform on
some drops to the floor, between the feet. Mine doesn't but I can still
muscle a snowblower onto it.
https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/H-1819/Stackers-and-Positioners/Hydraulic-Platform-Stacker?

The competing hydraulic scissors table gives better access all around, lacks
uprights to secure the load from tipping or being pushed off, and doesn't
raise as high or lower as low. I have one that I almost never use. It was
cheap without the original motor and pump, A PortaPower style foot pump
operates it.

[Richard Smith]

I'd be laying-down
(* 270 29.5) ;; 7965.0
8kW
at the arc.
(actually I was using 28.5V (?) in that weld pictured, to avoid
toe-groove on the vertical plate, even though there was onset of some
"misting" (not full spatter))
That's 10kW at the wall with an inverter, or probably 16kW with a
traditional transformer machine.
(/ 16e3 240) ;; 66.66666666666667
Which would be 67Amps at the wall on 240V.

I wanted to speak with people who have a machine they plug in in a shed,
probably from an "extension lead" from the house.

Happy times everyone.

Rich Smith

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...
...
I wanted to speak with people who have a machine they plug in in a shed,
probably from an "extension lead" from the house.

Happy times everyone.

Rich Smith
--------------------------------
I could if I had a shed in the front yard, but the town won't let me, so I
hang fire-treated curtains from stepladders and weld in the driveway. I have
a stick/TIG Lincoln Square Wave and long 50A extension cord that became
useless when I repurposed the back yard to firewood storage (NO sparks).

They didn't complain about the sawmill operations I ran twice in the front
yard, because the downed trees were too big to move elsewhere. This is a
neighborhood where nearly half the houses have heavy construction equipment
parked outside.

[Snag]

Post by Richard Smith
I'd be laying-down
(* 270 29.5) ;; 7965.0
8kW
at the arc.
(actually I was using 28.5V (?) in that weld pictured, to avoid
toe-groove on the vertical plate, even though there was onset of some
"misting" (not full spatter))
That's 10kW at the wall with an inverter, or probably 16kW with a
traditional transformer machine.
(/ 16e3 240) ;; 66.66666666666667
Which would be 67Amps at the wall on 240V.
I wanted to speak with people who have a machine they plug in in a shed,
probably from an "extension lead" from the house.
Happy times everyone.
Rich Smith

Well , I'm one of those "shed" people ... but my power feed to the
shop is 2/0 aluminum fed by a 100A breaker . I do sometimes use a ~15
foot 8ga extension cord for the 220V Lincoln WeldPak 175 or the 50A
plasma cutter . I haven't done any vertical up with this machine , last
time I did it was with the 110V Weldpak 100 using .035 flux core . The
work was a bush hog mower deck top of 2 layers of 11 ga steel(IIRC) , it
was adequate to the task . Welds weren't pretty but that was about 3
years ago and if there were any problems I'd have gotten a call - the
job was to replace fatigue cracked top deck plates where the gearbox
mounts . Neither welder is a pro grade machine , the 100 is a basic
hobbyist unit IMO and the 175 is a bit more serious but not quite pro
grade . For stick I have the usual 225A AC Lincoln tombstone and an
Everlast EX250 TIG/stick machine . The TIG machine will do AC and DC up
to 250 amps . I've never used it for stick . I suck at stick welding .
Anything under 1/4"/6mm gets done with the MIG , over that it depends on
the material - I'm a better TIG welder than stick , and I ain't that
good at TIG .