Discussion:
1991 ranger brake problem
(too old to reply)
Jim Wilkins
2024-11-10 23:45:44 UTC
Permalink
While checking and cleaning the brakes I was interrupted and on returning I
pushed the brake pedal by hand without a rear drum installed. Naturally the
pedal went in all the way. I checked the wheel cylinder boots, found no
fluid, installed the drum and vacuum bled all 4 brakes. Now the brake pedal
goes to the floor with only spring resistance. Using a broomstick, cord and
pulleys to press the pedal, no fluid comes from a disconnected master
cylinder port though it can be vacuum bled freely. BTW the master cylinder
flare nut thread is 10mm-1.0 while the wheel cylinders have inch thread.

Yearly LPS-3 let all the bolts loosen but the master cylinder is frozen to
the booster so I haven't checked if the pushrod moves, maybe tomorrow the
Kroil will have freed it. I don't know if my back can take the contortions
of crawling under the dash to check the linkage there, which was pushed
beyond normal though with only one hand.

Has anyone else had a similar problem with an early 90's Ford Ranger or
Explorer?
TIA, jsw
Jim Wilkins
2024-11-11 21:42:03 UTC
Permalink
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:vgrgle$k6r1$***@dont-email.me...

It's fine now, just needed an operator headspace adjustment.
Bob La Londe
2024-11-11 22:04:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
It's fine now, just needed an operator headspace adjustment.
You say you re-torqued the nut behind the wheel?
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jim Wilkins
2024-11-11 23:06:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
It's fine now, just needed an operator headspace adjustment.
You say you re-torqued the nut behind the wheel?
Bob La Londe

----------------------------

The good part is while looking for the problem I checked conditions and
cleaned up and sprayed
overlooked corrosion. Both of my vehicles are becoming old enough to attract
the attention of car buffs. Both have drivetrains reputed to last 300,000
miles but New England road salt rust usually kills well before that.

PB Blaster unstuck the light alloy master cylinder from the steel vacuum
booster. The factory shop manual gives plans to machine a gauge to check or
set booster pushrod protrusion, if you have a machine shop handy. I do but
instead of milling the gauge I used a parallel. That isn't the only special
tool they expect you to make. I snagged the engine tool kit at an auction.

A neighbor is restoring a 71 Chevy from worse condition than my truck.
Bob La Londe
2024-11-11 23:29:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob La Londe
Post by Jim Wilkins
It's fine now, just needed an operator headspace adjustment.
You say you re-torqued the nut behind the wheel?
Bob La Londe
----------------------------
The good part is while looking for the problem I checked conditions and
cleaned up and sprayed
overlooked corrosion. Both of my vehicles are becoming old enough to
attract the attention of car buffs. Both have drivetrains reputed to
last 300,000 miles but New England road salt rust usually kills well
before that.
PB Blaster unstuck the light alloy master cylinder from the steel vacuum
booster. The factory shop manual gives plans to machine a gauge to check
or set booster pushrod protrusion, if you have a machine shop handy. I
do but instead of milling the gauge I used a parallel. That isn't the
only special tool they expect you to make. I snagged the engine tool kit
at an auction.
A neighbor is restoring a 71 Chevy from worse condition than my truck.
I'll tell you after my last truck buying experience I would be very
tempted to buy an old truck and restore it if I had the time. I think
the 1982 Bronco might be my last such project. I'd be tempted to do
something with the '42 Willys, but I'll probably let it go to somebody
with a passion for it.

Interestingly the 42 Willys has virtually no rust, while the Bronco
needs some body work.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Clare Snyder
2024-11-12 01:32:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob La Londe
Post by Bob La Londe
Post by Jim Wilkins
It's fine now, just needed an operator headspace adjustment.
You say you re-torqued the nut behind the wheel?
Bob La Londe
----------------------------
The good part is while looking for the problem I checked conditions and
cleaned up and sprayed
overlooked corrosion. Both of my vehicles are becoming old enough to
attract the attention of car buffs. Both have drivetrains reputed to
last 300,000 miles but New England road salt rust usually kills well
before that.
PB Blaster unstuck the light alloy master cylinder from the steel vacuum
booster. The factory shop manual gives plans to machine a gauge to check
or set booster pushrod protrusion, if you have a machine shop handy. I
do but instead of milling the gauge I used a parallel. That isn't the
only special tool they expect you to make. I snagged the engine tool kit
at an auction.
A neighbor is restoring a 71 Chevy from worse condition than my truck.
I'll tell you after my last truck buying experience I would be very
tempted to buy an old truck and restore it if I had the time. I think
the 1982 Bronco might be my last such project. I'd be tempted to do
something with the '42 Willys, but I'll probably let it go to somebody
with a passion for it.
Interestingly the 42 Willys has virtually no rust, while the Bronco
needs some body work.
I picked up a pair of front fenders for my '96 Ranger longbed. Likely
paint them and put them on next summer. I need to do a bit of rust
repair above the windsheild and repaint the roof as well.
About 392000 on the clock. 4 liter 5 speed XL 3.55 posi
Post by Bob La Londe
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
Jim Wilkins
2024-11-12 01:53:18 UTC
Permalink
"Clare Snyder" wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...

I picked up a pair of front fenders for my '96 Ranger longbed. Likely
paint them and put them on next summer. I need to do a bit of rust
repair above the windsheild and repaint the roof as well.
About 392000 on the clock. 4 liter 5 speed XL 3.55 posi
---------------------------------------

Clearly you take good care of it. Mine has only 158,000 miles on it so it's
worth saving. Repair costs average under $100 a year.
Jim Wilkins
2024-11-12 01:39:31 UTC
Permalink
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:vgu410$17hmn$***@dont-email.me...

I'll tell you after my last truck buying experience I would be very
tempted to buy an old truck and restore it if I had the time. I think
the 1982 Bronco might be my last such project. I'd be tempted to do
something with the '42 Willys, but I'll probably let it go to somebody
with a passion for it.

Interestingly the 42 Willys has virtually no rust, while the Bronco
needs some body work.

Bob La Londe

-----------------------------
I'm less restoring than trying to catch and fix problems early. Test driving
new vehicles tends to make me feel I'd be trading down for practicality,
though up for style and gadgetry that I don't care about, and too much to
break.

The Ranger has a 7 foot bed on an otherwise fairly short and quite nimble
chassis, the 2000 CRV has a Land Rover joint venture body design, for me its
engineers' practicality compensates for the clunky styling. That first
generation included a folding table as the floor of the hatch area. A wash
basin / kitchen sink lines the empty tire well under it and there's a rear
outlet for a powered cooler. The seats fold down into beds. The two part
hatch allows loading the back as full as a trunk without spilling when
opened.
https://www.autoweek.com/car-life/diy/a34079591/early-honda-cr-vs-offer-nice-picnic-tables-for-you/
I paid the junkyard $12 for my spare table, which I use when working
outdoors.

My head hits the door frame entering the lower, sleeker new ones and the
smaller tinted windows make changing lanes difficult. Plus I have the old
ones' factory shop manuals which I can't get for new models. I can strip the
interiors out of the old ones in a few minutes (the Ford this AM) for
repairs, rewiring or washing the carpets, compared to a long tedious process
I read for adding the factory trailer wiring kit to a new car. I see why
that option is so expensive.
Clare Snyder
2024-11-12 03:34:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob La Londe
Post by Bob La Londe
Post by Jim Wilkins
It's fine now, just needed an operator headspace adjustment.
You say you re-torqued the nut behind the wheel?
Bob La Londe
----------------------------
The good part is while looking for the problem I checked conditions and
cleaned up and sprayed
overlooked corrosion. Both of my vehicles are becoming old enough to
attract the attention of car buffs. Both have drivetrains reputed to
last 300,000 miles but New England road salt rust usually kills well
before that.
PB Blaster unstuck the light alloy master cylinder from the steel vacuum
booster. The factory shop manual gives plans to machine a gauge to check
or set booster pushrod protrusion, if you have a machine shop handy. I
do but instead of milling the gauge I used a parallel. That isn't the
only special tool they expect you to make. I snagged the engine tool kit
at an auction.
A neighbor is restoring a 71 Chevy from worse condition than my truck.
I'll tell you after my last truck buying experience I would be very
tempted to buy an old truck and restore it if I had the time. I think
the 1982 Bronco might be my last such project. I'd be tempted to do
something with the '42 Willys, but I'll probably let it go to somebody
with a passion for it.
Interestingly the 42 Willys has virtually no rust, while the Bronco
needs some body work.
t
toobad that willys is so far away!!
Post by Bob La Londe
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
Jim Wilkins
2024-11-12 03:51:55 UTC
Permalink
"Clare Snyder" wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...

toobad that willys is so far away!!
Post by Bob La Londe
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--------------------------------------
The M151 Jeeps we had in Germany were not good on the roads there. They
couldn't keep up on the Autobahn and the winding back roads that BMWs were
built for tempted drivers to exceed their cornering limits. My VW could
easily handle the unpaved forest fire trails where we set up field exercise
sites.
Bob La Londe
2024-11-12 21:02:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clare Snyder
toobad that willys is so far away!!
Post by Bob La Londe
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--------------------------------------
The M151 Jeeps we had in Germany were not good on the roads there. They
couldn't keep up on the Autobahn and the winding back roads that BMWs
were built for tempted drivers to exceed their cornering limits. My VW
could easily handle the unpaved forest fire trails where we set up field
exercise sites.
When my dad first got that old Willys ready to go for a first off road
adventure we headed off across the sand dunes. I thought it was going
just fine, but he said he didn't feel like it was performing properly.
When we got back to the store and pulled around to the back to the shop
he hopped out to take a look. Then he realized he hadn't engaged the
hubs. LOL.

Probably, its biggest real world use for us was tracking people lost in
the desert. Now I can track (to a limited extent) looking at the window
of my truck, but I've always been better able to track on the ground.
Back then I hadn't really learned to track. Not well anyway. We'd put
that old GPV in first gear and hop out. As long as the terrain wasn't
extremely off camber or a crazy grade it would easily keep going in the
direction it was last pointed. We could spread out, cut sign, walk back
to the Jeep for lunch or a drink of water, or to change course as
needed. Seems like a little thing but it made a several hour to all day
rescue tolerable.

The short wheel base and front and rear end clearance was fantastic for
crossing all but the worst washouts, and it would climb some pretty
incredible grades just idling along with somebody at the wheel. Sand
was not even an issue.

High speed cornering? Um-no. Lots of high clearance vehicles struggle
with that. Even some you might not think. Flat out on the Autobahn?
You are kidding right? How much do you expect out of a flat head four?
Were you guys raiding the clinic and feeding it nitrous? Even then...
Um-no. LOL

FYI: That old '42 had a top speed in the high 50s. Maybe low 60s (but
I doubt it), but its got a torque ratio at idle that's insane. Its a
utility vehicle. By today's standards just a basic 4x4 side by side
with a bed to haul some stuff.

P.S. I should say I can track in the desert. Not so much in the woods.
It depends.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Snag
2024-11-12 21:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob La Londe
Post by Clare Snyder
toobad that willys is so far away!!
Post by Bob La Londe
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--------------------------------------
The M151 Jeeps we had in Germany were not good on the roads there.
They couldn't keep up on the Autobahn and the winding back roads that
BMWs were built for tempted drivers to exceed their cornering limits.
My VW could easily handle the unpaved forest fire trails where we set
up field exercise sites.
When my dad first got that old Willys ready to go for a first off road
adventure we headed off across the sand dunes.  I thought it was going
just fine, but he said he didn't feel like it was performing properly.
When we got back to the store and pulled around to the back to the shop
he hopped out to take a look.  Then he realized he hadn't engaged the
hubs.  LOL.
Probably, its biggest real world use for us was tracking people lost in
the desert.  Now I can track (to a limited extent) looking at the window
of my truck, but I've always been better able to track on the ground.
Back then I hadn't really learned to track.  Not well anyway.  We'd put
that old GPV in first gear and hop out.  As long as the terrain wasn't
extremely off camber or a crazy grade it would easily keep going in the
direction it was last pointed.  We could spread out, cut sign, walk back
to the Jeep for lunch or a drink of water, or to change course as
needed.  Seems like a little thing but it made a several hour to all day
rescue tolerable.
The short wheel base and front and rear end clearance was fantastic for
crossing all but the worst washouts, and it would climb some pretty
incredible grades just idling along with somebody at the wheel.  Sand
was not even an issue.
High speed cornering?  Um-no.  Lots of high clearance vehicles struggle
with that.  Even some you might not think.  Flat out on the Autobahn?
You are kidding right?  How much do you expect out of a flat head four?
Were you guys raiding the clinic and feeding it nitrous?  Even then...
Um-no.  LOL
FYI:  That old '42 had a top speed in the high 50s.  Maybe low 60s (but
I doubt it), but its got a torque ratio at idle that's insane.  Its a
utility vehicle.  By today's standards just a basic 4x4 side by side
with a bed to haul some stuff.
P.S.  I should say I can track in the desert.  Not so much in the woods.
 It depends.
Dad had a '57 Jeep pickup , he swapped out the original flathead six
for a Tornado 230 overhead cam six . Weren't much for top end but it
sure could climb ! Used to really piss of the guys with their hopped up
big tire hot rod Chevy's and Fords . Dad would set the throttle at about
1500-1600 RPM and drop it in low/low/4 and just walk up the hills those
boys just spun out on . My brother "gave it away to a friend" after Dad
died .
--
Snag
Voting for Kamabla after Biden
is like changing your shirt because
you shit your pants .
Bob La Londe
2024-11-12 22:38:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob La Londe
Post by Clare Snyder
toobad that willys is so far away!!
Post by Bob La Londe
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--------------------------------------
The M151 Jeeps we had in Germany were not good on the roads there.
They couldn't keep up on the Autobahn and the winding back roads that
BMWs were built for tempted drivers to exceed their cornering limits.
My VW could easily handle the unpaved forest fire trails where we set
up field exercise sites.
When my dad first got that old Willys ready to go for a first off road
adventure we headed off across the sand dunes.  I thought it was going
just fine, but he said he didn't feel like it was performing properly.
When we got back to the store and pulled around to the back to the
shop he hopped out to take a look.  Then he realized he hadn't engaged
the hubs.  LOL.
Probably, its biggest real world use for us was tracking people lost
in the desert.  Now I can track (to a limited extent) looking at the
window of my truck, but I've always been better able to track on the
ground. Back then I hadn't really learned to track.  Not well anyway.
We'd put that old GPV in first gear and hop out.  As long as the
terrain wasn't extremely off camber or a crazy grade it would easily
keep going in the direction it was last pointed.  We could spread out,
cut sign, walk back to the Jeep for lunch or a drink of water, or to
change course as needed.  Seems like a little thing but it made a
several hour to all day rescue tolerable.
The short wheel base and front and rear end clearance was fantastic
for crossing all but the worst washouts, and it would climb some
pretty incredible grades just idling along with somebody at the
wheel.  Sand was not even an issue.
High speed cornering?  Um-no.  Lots of high clearance vehicles
struggle with that.  Even some you might not think.  Flat out on the
Autobahn? You are kidding right?  How much do you expect out of a flat
head four? Were you guys raiding the clinic and feeding it nitrous?
Even then... Um-no.  LOL
FYI:  That old '42 had a top speed in the high 50s.  Maybe low 60s
(but I doubt it), but its got a torque ratio at idle that's insane.
Its a utility vehicle.  By today's standards just a basic 4x4 side by
side with a bed to haul some stuff.
P.S.  I should say I can track in the desert.  Not so much in the
woods.   It depends.
 Dad had a '57 Jeep pickup , he swapped out the original flathead six
for a Tornado 230 overhead cam six . Weren't much for top end but it
sure could climb ! Used to really piss of the guys with their hopped up
big tire hot rod Chevy's and Fords . Dad would set the throttle at about
1500-1600 RPM and drop it in low/low/4 and just walk up the hills those
boys just spun out on . My brother "gave it away to a friend" after Dad
died .
Yeah, my dad was in love with that Jeep, but its been parked a long
time. I am sure he would rather I fixed it backup again, but original
parts are a lot harder to find than they were back in mid 70s, and the
junk man my dad bought some of those early GOV parts from died a few
years ago too. His son has been liquidating everything and just wants
the land cleared. Any old GPV parts are long gone, and he's one of
those guys that's impossible to get a price from, because every time you
agree he changes the price.

I might ask my son if he would like me to save it for him, but my son
really has no connection with it.

Now that Bronco... first time my dad refreshed that motor he installed
what he called a 1/4 race cam. It loped and would jump like you kicked
it with the spurs if you bumped the throttle just a little hard. Next
time around he went with a much more sensible RV cam (long duration as
opposed to high lift) that developed real world torque. If I bore and
stroke it that's my goal. Sure it will develop more horsepower, but in
the mid range where its actually useful off the track. LOL. Probably
have to get rid of the Holley 650 and go with a throttle body to match
the bigger volume.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jim Wilkins
2024-11-12 23:02:10 UTC
Permalink
"Snag" wrote in message news:vh0ini$1q13r$***@dont-email.me...

Dad had a '57 Jeep pickup , he swapped out the original flathead six
for a Tornado 230 overhead cam six . Weren't much for top end but it
sure could climb ! Used to really piss of the guys with their hopped up
big tire hot rod Chevy's and Fords . Dad would set the throttle at about
1500-1600 RPM and drop it in low/low/4 and just walk up the hills those
boys just spun out on . My brother "gave it away to a friend" after Dad
died .
--
Snag
--------------------------------------

When I was of that age for some reason Jeeps weren't common off-road in NH.
VW dune buggies and older foreign cars were more popular with those who
couldn't afford a Land Rover, pickups with many who could. Dirt bikes were
the main choice before trikes and quads appeared, street-legal ones like
mine could get themselves to / from distant trails, though I had to go
around the most challenging obstacles. My buddy had a Land Rover which
proved the adage that the better you have, the further in you get stuck.
Usually I could get close enough to help dig out in my Beetle.

In Germany I had a bicycle and an inflatable boat, either of which could
carry me plus the other, and fences didn't block me. I could bicycle
upstream, float down the river, then bicycle home. The grid of fire trails
in forests let me go anywhere cross-country. Shell road maps were almost as
detailed as topo maps and showed various ancient ruins to explore.
Bob La Londe
2024-11-12 23:38:19 UTC
Permalink
 Dad had a '57 Jeep pickup , he swapped out the original flathead six
for a Tornado 230 overhead cam six . Weren't much for top end but it
sure could climb ! Used to really piss of the guys with their hopped up
big tire hot rod Chevy's and Fords . Dad would set the throttle at about
1500-1600 RPM and drop it in low/low/4 and just walk up the hills those
boys just spun out on . My brother "gave it away to a friend" after Dad
died .
--
Snag
--------------------------------------
When I was of that age for some reason Jeeps weren't common off-road in
NH. VW dune buggies and older foreign cars were more popular with those
who couldn't afford a Land Rover, pickups with many who could. Dirt
bikes were the main choice before trikes and quads appeared, street-
legal ones like mine could get themselves to / from distant trails,
though I had to go around the most challenging obstacles. My buddy had a
Land Rover which proved the adage that the better you have, the further
in you get stuck. Usually I could get close enough to help dig out in my
Beetle.
A Bulgarian designer I have worked with perhaps said it best. "The more
off road capable is your truck the further you must walk to find a
tractor."
In Germany I had a bicycle and an inflatable boat, either of which could
carry me plus the other, and fences didn't block me. I could bicycle
upstream, float down the river, then bicycle home. The grid of fire
trails in forests let me go anywhere cross-country. Shell road maps were
almost as detailed as topo maps and showed various ancient ruins to
explore.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jim Wilkins
2024-11-13 13:02:45 UTC
Permalink
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:vh0otb$1r6ir$***@dont-email.me...

A Bulgarian designer I have worked with perhaps said it best. "The more
off road capable is your truck the further you must walk to find a
tractor."

-----------------------------
Well said.

My interest was exploring the back country, not tearing it up, the tread
lightly ethic, so unlike my buddy with the Land Rover I didn't have to climb
the steepest hills just to prove I could. That was the hold-my-beer episode,
letting others feel superior for useless stunts doesn't bother me. Highway
performance was important for me, to get to the mountains an hour or more
away.

At the time I bought the Ranger a work friend from India used his engineer's
paycheck to satisfy his long-time yearning for a Jeep, so we rode around in
both. Though I didn't say so I felt that the 4WD Ranger was a much better
choice for mainly half hour daily commuting with a little relatively mild
exploring. With the 7 foot bed it was excellent for collecting firewood
because it could access untouched areas where wider full-sized pickups
hadn't. I used the winch to pull logs to the trail but never needed it to
extricate the truck. After I had collected all the dead wood the truck could
reach I switched to the narrower garden tractor and trailer. By then kids
had discovered and torn up the trails such that in spring the low areas
became mud pits I needed the winch to pass through.

The Ice Age melt filled in sand and gravel between the rocks and we don't
have a bare boulder-strewn Rubicon to challenge us, only power line access
roads and old dirt trails a horse and wagon could handle. The trail system
here is very extensive but mostly suited to and maintained for snowmobiles
which aren't so good on boulders or steep slopes, I found I could climb
straight up a steeper grade than they could on properly waxed cross-country
skis, and cross a filled-in gully they would sink into. The snowmobilers
have built trail bridges across streams that would be too dangerous to cross
on ice that running water kept from solidly freezing. Winter snow really
opens up the woods to travel by freezing swamps and covering rocks and
fallen trees that block trails in summer.
Leon Fisk
2024-11-13 13:42:10 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Nov 2024 08:02:45 -0500
"Jim Wilkins" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
Post by Jim Wilkins
My interest was exploring the back country, not tearing it up, the tread
lightly ethic, so unlike my buddy with the Land Rover I didn't have to climb
the steepest hills just to prove I could...
Years ago I would explore Michigans western UP on vacations. My Chevy
K10 wouldn't fit down most of the trails anymore because of its width.
Trails were being kept open by quad-runners. Mountain bike worked well
enough but something motorized would have been nice too. Liked the idea
of a Rokon two-wheel drive motorcycle but nearly had heart failure
when viewing the price. It's even doubled since I last looked😬 Still
think it would work great. Could have carried it on rear of the truck
using a hitch mount. Though can't fathom leaving it unattended anywhere
with that kinda price tag...

https://rokon.com/product/scout/
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI
Jim Wilkins
2024-11-13 15:13:47 UTC
Permalink
"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:vh2abi$272qo$***@dont-email.me...

...Liked the idea
of a Rokon two-wheel drive motorcycle but nearly had heart failure
when viewing the price. It's even doubled since I last looked😬 Still
think it would work great. Could have carried it on rear of the truck
using a hitch mount. Though can't fathom leaving it unattended anywhere
with that kinda price tag...

https://rokon.com/product/scout/
Leon Fisk
----------------------------
Although Rokons are made nearby I've never seen one on the trails. My Suzuki
185 would go almost anywhere, rabbit path to Interstate, just not as fast as
others so on long club trail rides I tended to fall back with the wives. The
invisible slippery rocks in a river were a challenge but I made it across
without falling and up the bank. The most capable rider had a Bultaco 125CC
Pursang and the skill to make the most of it.

We practiced the stunts of Trials competitions such as full-lock turns
balanced by the throttle, and stopping with feet up. I got as far as
climbing over a tree stump.

If the mud was impossible a folding camp saw cut sticks to 'pave' a firmer
trail.

The Suzuki was well suited to conditions here, street-legal plus capable of
narrow twisting forest trails. It's previous owner had ridden it in
California Enduros but I don't think it was powerful enough to be
competitive and the trials universal tires limited its sand, mud and snow
traction. It was fine for exploring.
Leon Fisk
2024-11-13 15:30:42 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Nov 2024 10:13:47 -0500
"Jim Wilkins" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
My Suzuki 185 would go almost anywhere...
Had a Suzuki TS-250 as a teen with a bit worn 4.50 knobby on the back.
Tried/did a lot of stupid stuff with it back then...

I could blast through really mushy spots but if you slowed down for any
reason you'd be stuck.

With a Rokon you can walk along side and finesse them over unrideable
terrain like logs and such which blocked areas I wanted to get to in
the UP. I was never talented enough to do stuff like I've seen in Trials
Comps with the Suzuki...
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI
Jim Wilkins
2024-11-13 18:30:40 UTC
Permalink
"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:vh2gn2$272qo$***@dont-email.me...

Had a Suzuki TS-250 as a teen with a bit worn 4.50 knobby on the back.
Tried/did a lot of stupid stuff with it back then...

I could blast through really mushy spots but if you slowed down for any
reason you'd be stuck.

With a Rokon you can walk along side and finesse them over unrideable
terrain like logs and such which blocked areas I wanted to get to in
the UP. I was never talented enough to do stuff like I've seen in Trials
Comps with the Suzuki...

Leon Fisk

--------------------------------
I didn't have the balance or coordination for much of what I tried to learn.
I put a lot of effort into some, like walking on a railroad rail to improve
my balance. I could ride and slide a motorcycle on ice, but not nearly well
enough to race.
Clare Snyder
2024-11-13 01:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob La Londe
Post by Clare Snyder
toobad that willys is so far away!!
Post by Bob La Londe
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--------------------------------------
The M151 Jeeps we had in Germany were not good on the roads there. They
couldn't keep up on the Autobahn and the winding back roads that BMWs
were built for tempted drivers to exceed their cornering limits. My VW
could easily handle the unpaved forest fire trails where we set up field
exercise sites.
When my dad first got that old Willys ready to go for a first off road
adventure we headed off across the sand dunes. I thought it was going
just fine, but he said he didn't feel like it was performing properly.
When we got back to the store and pulled around to the back to the shop
he hopped out to take a look. Then he realized he hadn't engaged the
hubs. LOL.
Probably, its biggest real world use for us was tracking people lost in
the desert. Now I can track (to a limited extent) looking at the window
of my truck, but I've always been better able to track on the ground.
Back then I hadn't really learned to track. Not well anyway. We'd put
that old GPV in first gear and hop out. As long as the terrain wasn't
extremely off camber or a crazy grade it would easily keep going in the
direction it was last pointed. We could spread out, cut sign, walk back
to the Jeep for lunch or a drink of water, or to change course as
needed. Seems like a little thing but it made a several hour to all day
rescue tolerable.
The short wheel base and front and rear end clearance was fantastic for
crossing all but the worst washouts, and it would climb some pretty
incredible grades just idling along with somebody at the wheel. Sand
was not even an issue.
High speed cornering? Um-no. Lots of high clearance vehicles struggle
with that. Even some you might not think. Flat out on the Autobahn?
You are kidding right? How much do you expect out of a flat head four?
Were you guys raiding the clinic and feeding it nitrous? Even then...
Um-no. LOL
FYI: That old '42 had a top speed in the high 50s. Maybe low 60s (but
I doubt it), but its got a torque ratio at idle that's insane. Its a
utility vehicle. By today's standards just a basic 4x4 side by side
with a bed to haul some stuff.
P.S. I should say I can track in the desert. Not so much in the woods.
It depends.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
I used to run an ex-military Dodge PowerWagon (1946?) as a tow truck.
About 48MPH wide open downhill with a tailwind - slightly faster if
you dropped it over a cliff
Jim Wilkins
2024-11-13 13:26:03 UTC
Permalink
"Clare Snyder" wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...

I used to run an ex-military Dodge PowerWagon (1946?) as a tow truck.
About 48MPH wide open downhill with a tailwind - slightly faster if
you dropped it over a cliff

------------------------------
One of the fastest WW2 military vehicles was a tank, the M18 Hellcat tank
destroyer with light thin armor. A nearby museum owns one that they have
taken out in MA traffic where it's one of the few vehicles that gets
complete respect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M18_Hellcat
"The Hellcat was the most effective U.S. tank destroyer of World War II. It
had a higher kill-to-loss ratio than any other tank or tank destroyer
fielded by U.S. forces in World War II."

In Germany I occasionally encountered tanks on the roads. Once I veered into
the woods to avoid a British convoy. I've helped push an antique cannon down
a winding back road. The expression on drivers who suddenly found themselves
staring into its muzzle was priceless.
Gerry
2024-11-13 04:19:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob La Londe
Post by Clare Snyder
toobad that willys is so far away!!
Post by Bob La Londe
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--------------------------------------
The M151 Jeeps we had in Germany were not good on the roads there. They
couldn't keep up on the Autobahn and the winding back roads that BMWs
were built for tempted drivers to exceed their cornering limits. My VW
could easily handle the unpaved forest fire trails where we set up field
exercise sites.
When my dad first got that old Willys ready to go for a first off road
adventure we headed off across the sand dunes. I thought it was going
just fine, but he said he didn't feel like it was performing properly.
When we got back to the store and pulled around to the back to the shop
he hopped out to take a look. Then he realized he hadn't engaged the
hubs. LOL.
Probably, its biggest real world use for us was tracking people lost in
the desert. Now I can track (to a limited extent) looking at the window
of my truck, but I've always been better able to track on the ground.
Back then I hadn't really learned to track. Not well anyway. We'd put
that old GPV in first gear and hop out. As long as the terrain wasn't
extremely off camber or a crazy grade it would easily keep going in the
direction it was last pointed. We could spread out, cut sign, walk back
to the Jeep for lunch or a drink of water, or to change course as
needed. Seems like a little thing but it made a several hour to all day
rescue tolerable.
The short wheel base and front and rear end clearance was fantastic for
crossing all but the worst washouts, and it would climb some pretty
incredible grades just idling along with somebody at the wheel. Sand
was not even an issue.
High speed cornering? Um-no. Lots of high clearance vehicles struggle
with that. Even some you might not think. Flat out on the Autobahn?
You are kidding right? How much do you expect out of a flat head four?
Were you guys raiding the clinic and feeding it nitrous? Even then...
Um-no. LOL
FYI: That old '42 had a top speed in the high 50s. Maybe low 60s (but
I doubt it), but its got a torque ratio at idle that's insane. Its a
utility vehicle. By today's standards just a basic 4x4 side by side
with a bed to haul some stuff.
P.S. I should say I can track in the desert. Not so much in the woods.
It depends.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
Around 1954-55, my older brother had a jeep flat bed 2wd truck, worst
truck he ever owned - that thing would get stuck going down hill with
a half inch of mud on the road. My Saturday job, if the temperatur was
below zero F, was to make certain the two heat lamps under the hood
were turned on so that it might start for him to go out somewhere that
night
Bob La Londe
2024-11-13 18:45:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerry
Post by Bob La Londe
Post by Clare Snyder
toobad that willys is so far away!!
Post by Bob La Londe
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--------------------------------------
The M151 Jeeps we had in Germany were not good on the roads there. They
couldn't keep up on the Autobahn and the winding back roads that BMWs
were built for tempted drivers to exceed their cornering limits. My VW
could easily handle the unpaved forest fire trails where we set up field
exercise sites.
When my dad first got that old Willys ready to go for a first off road
adventure we headed off across the sand dunes. I thought it was going
just fine, but he said he didn't feel like it was performing properly.
When we got back to the store and pulled around to the back to the shop
he hopped out to take a look. Then he realized he hadn't engaged the
hubs. LOL.
Probably, its biggest real world use for us was tracking people lost in
the desert. Now I can track (to a limited extent) looking at the window
of my truck, but I've always been better able to track on the ground.
Back then I hadn't really learned to track. Not well anyway. We'd put
that old GPV in first gear and hop out. As long as the terrain wasn't
extremely off camber or a crazy grade it would easily keep going in the
direction it was last pointed. We could spread out, cut sign, walk back
to the Jeep for lunch or a drink of water, or to change course as
needed. Seems like a little thing but it made a several hour to all day
rescue tolerable.
The short wheel base and front and rear end clearance was fantastic for
crossing all but the worst washouts, and it would climb some pretty
incredible grades just idling along with somebody at the wheel. Sand
was not even an issue.
High speed cornering? Um-no. Lots of high clearance vehicles struggle
with that. Even some you might not think. Flat out on the Autobahn?
You are kidding right? How much do you expect out of a flat head four?
Were you guys raiding the clinic and feeding it nitrous? Even then...
Um-no. LOL
FYI: That old '42 had a top speed in the high 50s. Maybe low 60s (but
I doubt it), but its got a torque ratio at idle that's insane. Its a
utility vehicle. By today's standards just a basic 4x4 side by side
with a bed to haul some stuff.
P.S. I should say I can track in the desert. Not so much in the woods.
It depends.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
Around 1954-55, my older brother had a jeep flat bed 2wd truck, worst
truck he ever owned - that thing would get stuck going down hill with
a half inch of mud on the road. My Saturday job, if the temperatur was
below zero F, was to make certain the two heat lamps under the hood
were turned on so that it might start for him to go out somewhere that
night
I think I mentioned it in another thread. Pickup trucks (classic bath
tub bed and std cab on a frame) are usually not very good unless they
have a load in the bed. A 2wd open diff pickup would not be my choice
either that being said from 2001-2017 all my new service trucks were 2WD
with auto locking diffs. (Chevy work trucks) With the normal load of
tools, wire, and hardware they were "okay." I did not unload them to go
hunting for instance. As long as I stuck to the main trails until I
bailed out to walk I didn't even think about it.

Of course tires make a big difference. When I ran trap lines back in
the 80s I used a Ford F150 2WD with stock diff and 31 x 10.5 tires.
With all my traps, coolers, and camp gear it did quite well. If I
remembered to air down all four) it was passable on most sand, but it
would still sink in bottomless sugar sand. I got it stuck a couple
times, but always got it out on my own. Sometimes it took all day, but
that is the life of a wannabe professional outdoorsman. Okay, my first
year I used a Plymouth Volare station wagon. LOL I think if it had the
same tires it would have been better than the pickup.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jim Wilkins
2024-11-13 19:44:50 UTC
Permalink
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:vh2s43$2b5ip$***@dont-email.me...

I think I mentioned it in another thread. Pickup trucks (classic bath
tub bed and std cab on a frame) are usually not very good unless they
have a load in the bed. A 2wd open diff pickup would not be my choice
either that being said from 2001-2017 all my new service trucks were 2WD
with auto locking diffs. (Chevy work trucks) With the normal load of
tools, wire, and hardware they were "okay." I did not unload them to go
hunting for instance. As long as I stuck to the main trails until I
bailed out to walk I didn't even think about it.

Of course tires make a big difference. When I ran trap lines back in
the 80s I used a Ford F150 2WD with stock diff and 31 x 10.5 tires.
With all my traps, coolers, and camp gear it did quite well. If I
remembered to air down all four) it was passable on most sand, but it
would still sink in bottomless sugar sand. I got it stuck a couple
times, but always got it out on my own. Sometimes it took all day, but
that is the life of a wannabe professional outdoorsman. Okay, my first
year I used a Plymouth Volare station wagon. LOL I think if it had the
same tires it would have been better than the pickup.

Bob La Londe
------------------------------
Ramblers did well in the Baja 500.

That definitely applied to my Ranger in 2WD. It was better in 4WD. If I
could get in somewhere with the bed empty I was sure to be able to get out
with a load of firewood. Only dirt bike skid recovery reflexes let me drive
the Ranger in 2WD on partly dry, partly icy pavement. A particularly
difficult icy commute home helped convince me to buy the AWD CRV which was
vastly better with (and good without) sticky hydrophilic Michelin Arctic
Alpine ice tires. A wet finger rubbed on most tires slides, on the Michelins
it grabs and squeaks.
Bob La Londe
2024-11-13 20:29:54 UTC
Permalink
I think I mentioned it in another thread.  Pickup trucks (classic bath
tub bed and std cab on a frame) are usually not very good unless they
have a load in the bed.  A 2wd open diff pickup would not be my choice
either that being said from 2001-2017 all my new service trucks were 2WD
with auto locking diffs.  (Chevy work trucks)  With the normal load of
tools, wire, and hardware they were "okay."  I did not unload them to go
hunting for instance.  As long as I stuck to the main trails until I
bailed out to walk I didn't even think about it.
Of course tires make a big difference.  When I ran trap lines back in
the 80s I used a Ford F150 2WD with stock diff and 31 x 10.5 tires.
With all my traps, coolers, and camp gear it did quite well.  If I
remembered to air down all four) it was passable on most sand, but it
would still sink in bottomless sugar sand.  I got it stuck a couple
times, but always got it out on my own.  Sometimes it took all day, but
that is the life of a wannabe professional outdoorsman.  Okay, my first
year I used a Plymouth Volare station wagon.  LOL  I think if it had the
same tires it would have been better than the pickup.
Bob La Londe
------------------------------
Ramblers did well in the Baja 500.
That definitely applied to my Ranger in 2WD. It was better in 4WD. If I
could get in somewhere with the bed empty I was sure to be able to get
out with a load of firewood. Only dirt bike skid recovery reflexes let
me drive the Ranger in 2WD on partly dry, partly icy pavement. A
particularly difficult icy commute home helped convince me to buy the
AWD CRV which was vastly better with (and good without) sticky
hydrophilic Michelin Arctic Alpine ice tires. A wet finger rubbed on
most tires slides, on the Michelins it grabs and squeaks.
Generally the only complaint I hear about Michelin tires is the price.
When I picked up my new truck I was actually a little disappointed to
see it came with Michelin truck tires. Now I'll have to wait a few
years to wear them out so I can upgrade to some ATs. I'm just to cheap
to replace otherwise perfectly good tires.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Clare Snyder
2024-11-13 21:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob La Londe
I think I mentioned it in another thread.  Pickup trucks (classic bath
tub bed and std cab on a frame) are usually not very good unless they
have a load in the bed.  A 2wd open diff pickup would not be my choice
either that being said from 2001-2017 all my new service trucks were 2WD
with auto locking diffs.  (Chevy work trucks)  With the normal load of
tools, wire, and hardware they were "okay."  I did not unload them to go
hunting for instance.  As long as I stuck to the main trails until I
bailed out to walk I didn't even think about it.
Of course tires make a big difference.  When I ran trap lines back in
the 80s I used a Ford F150 2WD with stock diff and 31 x 10.5 tires.
With all my traps, coolers, and camp gear it did quite well.  If I
remembered to air down all four) it was passable on most sand, but it
would still sink in bottomless sugar sand.  I got it stuck a couple
times, but always got it out on my own.  Sometimes it took all day, but
that is the life of a wannabe professional outdoorsman.  Okay, my first
year I used a Plymouth Volare station wagon.  LOL  I think if it had the
same tires it would have been better than the pickup.
Bob La Londe
------------------------------
Ramblers did well in the Baja 500.
That definitely applied to my Ranger in 2WD. It was better in 4WD. If I
could get in somewhere with the bed empty I was sure to be able to get
out with a load of firewood. Only dirt bike skid recovery reflexes let
me drive the Ranger in 2WD on partly dry, partly icy pavement. A
particularly difficult icy commute home helped convince me to buy the
AWD CRV which was vastly better with (and good without) sticky
hydrophilic Michelin Arctic Alpine ice tires. A wet finger rubbed on
most tires slides, on the Michelins it grabs and squeaks.
Generally the only complaint I hear about Michelin tires is the price.
When I picked up my new truck I was actually a little disappointed to
see it came with Michelin truck tires. Now I'll have to wait a few
years to wear them out so I can upgrade to some ATs. I'm just to cheap
to replace otherwise perfectly good tires.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
Virtually every Michelin tire I have owned has had the sidewalls
checker and crack long before the tread wore out - and that goes back
to early 1960s? Michelin X tires and up to my last xlts. I've never
wore one out - - - - and they have hardened up to the point they would
have made good "burnout tires" even on a 4 or 6 cyl vehicle.
Yes, they all lasted over 6 years - but on many that was less than
30000 KM. REALLY burns to have to throw away expensive rubber with
over 80% tread left!!!!!
Bob La Londe
2024-11-13 21:54:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clare Snyder
Post by Bob La Londe
I think I mentioned it in another thread.  Pickup trucks (classic bath
tub bed and std cab on a frame) are usually not very good unless they
have a load in the bed.  A 2wd open diff pickup would not be my choice
either that being said from 2001-2017 all my new service trucks were 2WD
with auto locking diffs.  (Chevy work trucks)  With the normal load of
tools, wire, and hardware they were "okay."  I did not unload them to go
hunting for instance.  As long as I stuck to the main trails until I
bailed out to walk I didn't even think about it.
Of course tires make a big difference.  When I ran trap lines back in
the 80s I used a Ford F150 2WD with stock diff and 31 x 10.5 tires.
With all my traps, coolers, and camp gear it did quite well.  If I
remembered to air down all four) it was passable on most sand, but it
would still sink in bottomless sugar sand.  I got it stuck a couple
times, but always got it out on my own.  Sometimes it took all day, but
that is the life of a wannabe professional outdoorsman.  Okay, my first
year I used a Plymouth Volare station wagon.  LOL  I think if it had the
same tires it would have been better than the pickup.
Bob La Londe
------------------------------
Ramblers did well in the Baja 500.
That definitely applied to my Ranger in 2WD. It was better in 4WD. If I
could get in somewhere with the bed empty I was sure to be able to get
out with a load of firewood. Only dirt bike skid recovery reflexes let
me drive the Ranger in 2WD on partly dry, partly icy pavement. A
particularly difficult icy commute home helped convince me to buy the
AWD CRV which was vastly better with (and good without) sticky
hydrophilic Michelin Arctic Alpine ice tires. A wet finger rubbed on
most tires slides, on the Michelins it grabs and squeaks.
Generally the only complaint I hear about Michelin tires is the price.
When I picked up my new truck I was actually a little disappointed to
see it came with Michelin truck tires. Now I'll have to wait a few
years to wear them out so I can upgrade to some ATs. I'm just to cheap
to replace otherwise perfectly good tires.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
Virtually every Michelin tire I have owned has had the sidewalls
checker and crack long before the tread wore out - and that goes back
to early 1960s? Michelin X tires and up to my last xlts. I've never
wore one out - - - - and they have hardened up to the point they would
have made good "burnout tires" even on a 4 or 6 cyl vehicle.
Yes, they all lasted over 6 years - but on many that was less than
30000 KM. REALLY burns to have to throw away expensive rubber with
over 80% tread left!!!!!
Virtually all tires have one major weakness. They degrade with exposure
to the C02 in the air. Buna (neoprene) rubber o-rings too. Buna-N,
Viton, and silicone much less so.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Snag
2024-11-13 22:09:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clare Snyder
Post by Bob La Londe
I think I mentioned it in another thread.  Pickup trucks (classic bath
tub bed and std cab on a frame) are usually not very good unless they
have a load in the bed.  A 2wd open diff pickup would not be my choice
either that being said from 2001-2017 all my new service trucks were 2WD
with auto locking diffs.  (Chevy work trucks)  With the normal load of
tools, wire, and hardware they were "okay."  I did not unload them to go
hunting for instance.  As long as I stuck to the main trails until I
bailed out to walk I didn't even think about it.
Of course tires make a big difference.  When I ran trap lines back in
the 80s I used a Ford F150 2WD with stock diff and 31 x 10.5 tires.
With all my traps, coolers, and camp gear it did quite well.  If I
remembered to air down all four) it was passable on most sand, but it
would still sink in bottomless sugar sand.  I got it stuck a couple
times, but always got it out on my own.  Sometimes it took all day, but
that is the life of a wannabe professional outdoorsman.  Okay, my first
year I used a Plymouth Volare station wagon.  LOL  I think if it had the
same tires it would have been better than the pickup.
Bob La Londe
------------------------------
Ramblers did well in the Baja 500.
That definitely applied to my Ranger in 2WD. It was better in 4WD. If I
could get in somewhere with the bed empty I was sure to be able to get
out with a load of firewood. Only dirt bike skid recovery reflexes let
me drive the Ranger in 2WD on partly dry, partly icy pavement. A
particularly difficult icy commute home helped convince me to buy the
AWD CRV which was vastly better with (and good without) sticky
hydrophilic Michelin Arctic Alpine ice tires. A wet finger rubbed on
most tires slides, on the Michelins it grabs and squeaks.
Generally the only complaint I hear about Michelin tires is the price.
When I picked up my new truck I was actually a little disappointed to
see it came with Michelin truck tires.  Now I'll have to wait a few
years to wear them out so I can upgrade to some ATs.  I'm just to cheap
to replace otherwise perfectly good tires.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
Virtually every Michelin tire I have owned has had the sidewalls
checker and crack long before the tread wore out - and that goes back
to early 1960s? Michelin X tires and up to my last xlts. I've never
wore one out - - - - and they have hardened up to the point they would
have made good "burnout tires" even on a 4 or 6 cyl vehicle.
  Yes, they all lasted over 6 years - but on many that was less than
30000 KM. REALLY burns to have to throw away expensive rubber with
over 80% tread left!!!!!
Virtually all tires have one major weakness.  They degrade with exposure
to the C02 in the air.  Buna (neoprene) rubber o-rings too.  Buna-N,
Viton, and silicone much less so.
I thought it was exposure to sunlight/UV that caused most of the
sidewall degradation ... or are those aftermarket tire covers (in
particular for RV's and campers) just another scam ?
--
Snag
Voting for Kamabla after Biden
is like changing your shirt because
you shit your pants .
Bob La Londe
2024-11-13 22:24:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clare Snyder
Post by Bob La Londe
I think I mentioned it in another thread.  Pickup trucks (classic bath
tub bed and std cab on a frame) are usually not very good unless they
have a load in the bed.  A 2wd open diff pickup would not be my choice
either that being said from 2001-2017 all my new service trucks were 2WD
with auto locking diffs.  (Chevy work trucks)  With the normal load of
tools, wire, and hardware they were "okay."  I did not unload them to go
hunting for instance.  As long as I stuck to the main trails until I
bailed out to walk I didn't even think about it.
Of course tires make a big difference.  When I ran trap lines back in
the 80s I used a Ford F150 2WD with stock diff and 31 x 10.5 tires.
With all my traps, coolers, and camp gear it did quite well.  If I
remembered to air down all four) it was passable on most sand, but it
would still sink in bottomless sugar sand.  I got it stuck a couple
times, but always got it out on my own.  Sometimes it took all day, but
that is the life of a wannabe professional outdoorsman.  Okay, my first
year I used a Plymouth Volare station wagon.  LOL  I think if it had the
same tires it would have been better than the pickup.
Bob La Londe
------------------------------
Ramblers did well in the Baja 500.
That definitely applied to my Ranger in 2WD. It was better in 4WD. If I
could get in somewhere with the bed empty I was sure to be able to get
out with a load of firewood. Only dirt bike skid recovery reflexes let
me drive the Ranger in 2WD on partly dry, partly icy pavement. A
particularly difficult icy commute home helped convince me to buy the
AWD CRV which was vastly better with (and good without) sticky
hydrophilic Michelin Arctic Alpine ice tires. A wet finger rubbed on
most tires slides, on the Michelins it grabs and squeaks.
Generally the only complaint I hear about Michelin tires is the price.
When I picked up my new truck I was actually a little disappointed to
see it came with Michelin truck tires.  Now I'll have to wait a few
years to wear them out so I can upgrade to some ATs.  I'm just to cheap
to replace otherwise perfectly good tires.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
Virtually every Michelin tire I have owned has had the sidewalls
checker and crack long before the tread wore out - and that goes back
to early 1960s? Michelin X tires and up to my last xlts. I've never
wore one out - - - - and they have hardened up to the point they would
have made good "burnout tires" even on a 4 or 6 cyl vehicle.
  Yes, they all lasted over 6 years - but on many that was less than
30000 KM. REALLY burns to have to throw away expensive rubber with
over 80% tread left!!!!!
Virtually all tires have one major weakness.  They degrade with
exposure to the C02 in the air.  Buna (neoprene) rubber o-rings too.
Buna-N, Viton, and silicone much less so.
  I thought it was exposure to sunlight/UV that caused most of the
sidewall degradation ... or are those aftermarket tire covers (in
particular for RV's and campers) just another scam ?
Yeah I don't know for sure. UV is certainly capable of damaging a lot
of things. I do know CO2 is an issue with some rubbers. I was told
by... well somebody... that tires were among them.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jim Wilkins
2024-11-13 23:58:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snag
I thought it was exposure to sunlight/UV that caused most of the
sidewall degradation ... or are those aftermarket tire covers (in
particular for RV's and campers) just another scam ?
Yeah I don't know for sure. UV is certainly capable of damaging a lot
of things. I do know CO2 is an issue with some rubbers. I was told
by... well somebody... that tires were among them.
--
Bob La Londe

----------------------------------
CO2 is relatively inert, and can be used to expand foam rubber. IIRC ozone
(mutant oxygen) is the gas that deteriorates tires.
https://www.coirubber.com/ozone-and-rubber-deterioration/

Wood is just a rearrangement of atoms from air. Several other rearrangements
of air are deadly toxins, rocket fuels or both.
Bob La Londe
2024-11-14 19:31:00 UTC
Permalink
   I thought it was exposure to sunlight/UV that caused most of the
sidewall degradation ... or are those aftermarket tire covers (in
particular for RV's and campers) just another scam ?
Yeah I don't know for sure.  UV is certainly capable of damaging a lot
of things.  I do know CO2 is an issue with some rubbers.  I was told
by... well somebody... that tires were among them.
Nobody likes to be wrong, so I did some look ups.

CO2 is said to contribute to the breakdown of rubber on several sites.
Some say "distressed" CO2 and others just generically say CO2. O3 also
contributes to the break down of rubbers and is more reactive. Then I
looked at concentrations per a few other references. They say CO2 is
present at ground level from 300 to 900 PPM (million) where as O3 is
typically present at 20-30 PPB (billion).

As to whether the difference in available molecules makes a real
difference in which has more net affect I do not know, but the numbers
do make you think.

I recall now where I first ran across the reference to CO2 and its
reactivity with rubbers. I don't recall exactly who it was (could have
been Bob Sterne), but it was in regards to tuning, building, and
repairing airguns. Admittedly air can be quite distressed in a spring
piston gun generating enough sudden compression to detonate oils or in a
PCP gun where air can be stored at pressures as high as 4500PSI. Over
300 bar for the metric crowd.

I'm not saying I was right and you were wrong. Not at all. I could
very well be wrong still. My "expertise" with material science is
limited to rote memory and blue collar experience. I'm just stating it
might not be as cut and dried as as it seems. I would argue in full on
flat Earther fashion... "Nothing is ever totally settled science." LOL.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jim Wilkins
2024-11-14 23:03:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob La Londe
Post by Snag
I thought it was exposure to sunlight/UV that caused most of the
sidewall degradation ... or are those aftermarket tire covers (in
particular for RV's and campers) just another scam ?
Yeah I don't know for sure. UV is certainly capable of damaging a lot
of things. I do know CO2 is an issue with some rubbers. I was told
by... well somebody... that tires were among them.
Nobody likes to be wrong, so I did some look ups.

CO2 is said to contribute to the breakdown of rubber on several sites.
Some say "distressed" CO2 and others just generically say CO2. O3 also
contributes to the break down of rubbers and is more reactive. Then I
looked at concentrations per a few other references. They say CO2 is
present at ground level from 300 to 900 PPM (million) where as O3 is
typically present at 20-30 PPB (billion).

As to whether the difference in available molecules makes a real
difference in which has more net affect I do not know, but the numbers
do make you think.

I recall now where I first ran across the reference to CO2 and its
reactivity with rubbers. I don't recall exactly who it was (could have
been Bob Sterne), but it was in regards to tuning, building, and
repairing airguns. Admittedly air can be quite distressed in a spring
piston gun generating enough sudden compression to detonate oils or in a
PCP gun where air can be stored at pressures as high as 4500PSI. Over
300 bar for the metric crowd.

I'm not saying I was right and you were wrong. Not at all. I could
very well be wrong still. My "expertise" with material science is
limited to rote memory and blue collar experience. I'm just stating it
might not be as cut and dried as as it seems. I would argue in full on
flat Earther fashion... "Nothing is ever totally settled science." LOL.
Bob La Londe
--------------------------------

While researching I saw some mentions of CO2 damage too, mainly with high
pressure gaseous and liquid CO2. It may have been physical rather than
chemical damage from absorbed gas and rapid pressure changes, in oil well
instruments. I didn't see any for atmospheric pressure on tires. I'm burning
through my monthly 10GB data allotment too fast to do more research on it.
Clare Snyder
2024-11-15 01:55:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob La Londe
   I thought it was exposure to sunlight/UV that caused most of the
sidewall degradation ... or are those aftermarket tire covers (in
particular for RV's and campers) just another scam ?
Yeah I don't know for sure.  UV is certainly capable of damaging a lot
of things.  I do know CO2 is an issue with some rubbers.  I was told
by... well somebody... that tires were among them.
Nobody likes to be wrong, so I did some look ups.
CO2 is said to contribute to the breakdown of rubber on several sites.
Some say "distressed" CO2 and others just generically say CO2. O3 also
contributes to the break down of rubbers and is more reactive. Then I
looked at concentrations per a few other references. They say CO2 is
present at ground level from 300 to 900 PPM (million) where as O3 is
typically present at 20-30 PPB (billion).
As to whether the difference in available molecules makes a real
difference in which has more net affect I do not know, but the numbers
do make you think.
I recall now where I first ran across the reference to CO2 and its
reactivity with rubbers. I don't recall exactly who it was (could have
been Bob Sterne), but it was in regards to tuning, building, and
repairing airguns. Admittedly air can be quite distressed in a spring
piston gun generating enough sudden compression to detonate oils or in a
PCP gun where air can be stored at pressures as high as 4500PSI. Over
300 bar for the metric crowd.
I'm not saying I was right and you were wrong. Not at all. I could
very well be wrong still. My "expertise" with material science is
limited to rote memory and blue collar experience. I'm just stating it
might not be as cut and dried as as it seems. I would argue in full on
flat Earther fashion... "Nothing is ever totally settled science." LOL.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
From Wiki

iny traces of ozone in the air will attack double bonds in rubber
chains, with natural rubber, polybutadiene, styrene-butadiene rubber
and nitrile rubber being most sensitive to degradation.[1] Every
repeat unit in the first three materials has a double bond, so every
unit can be degraded by ozone. Nitrile rubber is a copolymer of
butadiene and acrylonitrile units, but the proportion of acrylonitrile
is usually lower than butadiene, so attack occurs. Butyl rubber is
more resistant but still has a small number of double bonds in its
chains, so attack is possible. Exposed surfaces are attacked first,
the density of cracks varying with ozone gas concentration. The higher
the concentration, the greater the number of cracks formed.

Ozone-resistant elastomers include EPDM, fluoroelastomers like Viton
and polychloroprene rubbers like Neoprene. Attack is less likely
because double bonds form a very small proportion of the chains, and
with the latter, the chlorination reduces the electron density in the
double bonds, therefore lowering their propensity to react with ozone.
Silicone rubber, Hypalon and polyurethanes are also ozone-resistant.
Form of cracking
Macrophotograph of ozone cracking in NBR (Nitrile Butadiene Rubber)
diaphragm seal

Ozone cracks form in products under tension, but the critical strain
is very small. The cracks are always oriented at right angles to the
strain axis, so will form around the circumference in a rubber tube
bent over. Such cracks are very dangerous when they occur in fuel
pipes because the cracks will grow from the outside exposed surfaces
into the bore of the pipe, so fuel leakage and fire may follow. Seals
are also susceptible to attack, such as diaphragm seals in air lines.
Such seals are often critical for the operation of pneumatic controls,
and if a crack penetrates the seal, all functions of the system can be
lost. Nitrile rubber seals are commonly used in pneumatic systems
because of its oil resistance. However, if ozone gas is present,
cracking will occur in the seals unless preventative measures are
taken. Ozone attack will occur at the most sensitive zones in a seal,
especially sharp corners where the strain is greatest when the seal is
flexing in use. The corners represent stress concentrations, so the
tension is at a maximum when the diaphragm of the seal is bent under
air pressure.

The reaction occurring between double bonds and ozone is known as
ozonolysis when one molecule of the gas reacts with the double bond:
A generalized scheme of ozonolysis

The immediate result is formation of an ozonide, which then decomposes
rapidly so that the double bond is cleaved. This is the critical step
in chain breakage when polymers are attacked. The strength of polymers
depends on the chain molecular weight or degree of polymerization, the
higher the chain length, the greater the mechanical strength (such as
tensile strength). By cleaving the chain, the molecular weight drops
rapidly and there comes a point when it has little strength
whatsoever, and a crack forms. Further attack occurs in the freshly
exposed crack surfaces and the crack grows steadily until it completes
a circuit and the product separates or fails. In the case of a seal or
a tube, failure occurs when the wall of the device is penetrated.

The carbonyl end groups which are formed are usually aldehydes or
ketones, which can oxidise further to carboxylic acids. The net result
is a high concentration of elemental oxygen on the crack surfaces,
which can be detected using energy-dispersive X-ray spectroscopy in
the environmental SEM, or ESEM. The spectrum at left shows the high
oxygen peak compared with a constant sulfur peak.
Jim Wilkins
2024-11-15 13:20:20 UTC
Permalink
"Clare Snyder" wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...

The carbonyl [C=O] end groups which are formed are usually aldehydes or
ketones, which can oxidise further to carboxylic acids. The net result
is a high concentration of elemental oxygen on the crack surfaces,
which can be detected using energy-dispersive X-ray spectroscopy in
the environmental SEM, or ESEM. The spectrum at left shows the high
oxygen peak compared with a constant sulfur peak.
---------------------------------
That's slightly wrong like much of Wiki. Aldehyde implies an oxygen at the
end but a ketone has oxygen hanging off in the middle. Chemistry is too
complex for simple explanations. My 4 year degree in it qualified me only to
understand further education which the Vietnam draft prevented, though the
knowledge of matter, energy and quantum mechanics gave me a boost into other
fields like semiconductor physics.

Sulfur is mixed into raw rubber to react with the C=C sites, but with
different consequences, being less aggressive than its cousin oxygen it
hardens and stabilizes, "vulcanizes", the rubber instead of enabling further
degradation. It's the reason burning rubber smells bad.

Linseed and other "unsaturated" (double-bonded, -C=C-) plant-based oils
cross-link and harden in air by a similar process. The fire hazard from a
covered waste can of oily rags was caused by the feedback loop of oxidation
releases heat and heat speeds further oxidation. The mineral oils that
replaced them in machining have fewer double bonds and don't heat up.
"Paraffin" is from Latin "parum affinitas" and means low reactivity.
Peter Fairbrother
2024-11-18 02:09:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
Chemistry is
too complex for simple explanations. My 4 year degree in it qualified me
only to understand further education which the Vietnam draft prevented,
though the knowledge of matter, energy and quantum mechanics gave me a
boost into other fields like semiconductor physics.
I dunno. I only did a three year (Hons) degree ;) Can do some quantum
stuff, and pde's, sometimes, but failed conic sections till years later.
Perhaps because they have little to do with chemistry. i digress.

If you keep it to atoms made of nuclei and electrons, without going into
the quantum physics but with a little electron cloud handwavium, it can
be fairly understandable. But often l o o o o n n g, especially if you
include reaction mechanisms.

One of my favourites is when in a house to describe the rooms as
electron clouds of atoms, each with one nucleus - just barely visible to
scale - in each room.

But even if you do get it all in there, and get it understandable (and
correct, of course), does it help the average citizen or even
tekki-sheddi? Possibly not. So it squirms back into the murk of
knowledge which is never going to be used.

Or gets relegated to Google storage - keep the outline, search for
details if/when needed. Especially in chemistry where there are over a
billion entries in the Beilstein/Gmelin/Reaxys database...

In places like this I try to curate for a curious intelligent person,
with a smattering of science, to feel that I answered a question or they
learned something, hopefully light enough to float in the murk... or an
outline worth remembering.

Peter Fairbrother
Jim Wilkins
2024-11-18 04:23:35 UTC
Permalink
Chemistry is too complex for simple explanations.
If you keep it to atoms made of nuclei and electrons, without going into
the quantum physics but with a little electron cloud handwavium, it can
be fairly understandable. But often l o o o o n n g, especially if you
include reaction mechanisms.

-------------------------------------

I practice trying to make tech understandable but I've given up on trying to
simplify the thermodynamics of reactions or solubility enough to explain why
they go the sometimes non-intuitive ways they do, entropy in particular.
Peter Fairbrother
2024-11-15 02:26:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob La Londe
   I thought it was exposure to sunlight/UV that caused most of the
sidewall degradation ... or are those aftermarket tire covers (in
particular for RV's and campers) just another scam ?
Yeah I don't know for sure.  UV is certainly capable of damaging a lot
of things.  I do know CO2 is an issue with some rubbers.  I was told
by... well somebody... that tires were among them.
Nobody likes to be wrong, so I did some look ups.
CO2 is said to contribute to the breakdown of rubber on several sites.
Some say "distressed" CO2 and others just generically say CO2.
I have no idea what "distressed" CO2 is, but CO2 dissolves in tyre
rubber, kind-of. It seeps into spaces between the molecules in the
rubber, and can seep through the rubber. This doesn't normally do much
damage to the rubber, but because of this seepage a tyre filled with CO2
will deflate quicker than a tyre filled with air.

That said, rubber in high pressure CO2 will absorb more CO2 - and if the
pressure is suddenly released, as in a CO2 gun, the CO2 can bubble out,
damaging the rubber, perhaps severely.

Another thing CO2 does is actually react with rubber, which can cause
damage. However the amount of CO2 in normal air isn't likely to do much
harm to car tyres - the normal oxygen in air will probably do more
damage, long term - but it could well damage rubber in CO2 guns and
airguns.

An aside, people put lampblack (carbon) in rubber for several reasons,
but a major one is to slow the reaction with oxygen in the air. The
oxygen still reacts, but (somewhere between greatly simplified and
lies-to-children) reacts with the lampblack instead of the rubber...
producing CO2, which permeates out to the atmosphere... But overall, the
rubber lasts longer.

Rubber should not be used to seal CO2 long-term, especially under high
pressure.


UV and O3 are very different animals!! Both will aggressively attack
rubber. And almost anything else, including humans.

Peter Fairbrother
Jim Wilkins
2024-11-15 15:56:57 UTC
Permalink
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:vh5j5j$2v6fp$***@dont-email.me...

Nobody likes to be wrong, so I did some look ups.

CO2 is said to contribute to the breakdown of rubber on several sites.
--------------------------------------

You weren't wrong, we found confirmation, but the breakdown appears to be
from physical expansion and tearing from absorbed CO2 expanding when high
pressure is released, instead of chemical attack like ozone.
Jim Wilkins
2024-11-15 20:55:12 UTC
Permalink
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:vh7r2g$3fu0h$***@dont-email.me...

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:vh5j5j$2v6fp$***@dont-email.me...

Nobody likes to be wrong, so I did some look ups.

CO2 is said to contribute to the breakdown of rubber on several sites.
--------------------------------------

You weren't wrong, we found confirmation, but the breakdown appears to be
from physical expansion and tearing from absorbed CO2 expanding when high
pressure is released, instead of chemical attack like ozone.

-------------------------------------
https://www.walther-praezision.de/en/kohlenstoffdioxid-co2-explosive-dekompression-elastomere-dichtungen-beim-entkuppeln/
Clare Snyder
2024-11-14 03:06:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snag
Post by Clare Snyder
Post by Bob La Londe
I think I mentioned it in another thread.  Pickup trucks (classic bath
tub bed and std cab on a frame) are usually not very good unless they
have a load in the bed.  A 2wd open diff pickup would not be my choice
either that being said from 2001-2017 all my new service trucks were 2WD
with auto locking diffs.  (Chevy work trucks)  With the normal load of
tools, wire, and hardware they were "okay."  I did not unload them to go
hunting for instance.  As long as I stuck to the main trails until I
bailed out to walk I didn't even think about it.
Of course tires make a big difference.  When I ran trap lines back in
the 80s I used a Ford F150 2WD with stock diff and 31 x 10.5 tires.
With all my traps, coolers, and camp gear it did quite well.  If I
remembered to air down all four) it was passable on most sand, but it
would still sink in bottomless sugar sand.  I got it stuck a couple
times, but always got it out on my own.  Sometimes it took all day, but
that is the life of a wannabe professional outdoorsman.  Okay, my first
year I used a Plymouth Volare station wagon.  LOL  I think if it had the
same tires it would have been better than the pickup.
Bob La Londe
------------------------------
Ramblers did well in the Baja 500.
That definitely applied to my Ranger in 2WD. It was better in 4WD. If I
could get in somewhere with the bed empty I was sure to be able to get
out with a load of firewood. Only dirt bike skid recovery reflexes let
me drive the Ranger in 2WD on partly dry, partly icy pavement. A
particularly difficult icy commute home helped convince me to buy the
AWD CRV which was vastly better with (and good without) sticky
hydrophilic Michelin Arctic Alpine ice tires. A wet finger rubbed on
most tires slides, on the Michelins it grabs and squeaks.
Generally the only complaint I hear about Michelin tires is the price.
When I picked up my new truck I was actually a little disappointed to
see it came with Michelin truck tires.  Now I'll have to wait a few
years to wear them out so I can upgrade to some ATs.  I'm just to cheap
to replace otherwise perfectly good tires.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
Virtually every Michelin tire I have owned has had the sidewalls
checker and crack long before the tread wore out - and that goes back
to early 1960s? Michelin X tires and up to my last xlts. I've never
wore one out - - - - and they have hardened up to the point they would
have made good "burnout tires" even on a 4 or 6 cyl vehicle.
  Yes, they all lasted over 6 years - but on many that was less than
30000 KM. REALLY burns to have to throw away expensive rubber with
over 80% tread left!!!!!
Virtually all tires have one major weakness.  They degrade with exposure
to the C02 in the air.  Buna (neoprene) rubber o-rings too.  Buna-N,
Viton, and silicone much less so.
I thought it was exposure to sunlight/UV that caused most of the
sidewall degradation ... or are those aftermarket tire covers (in
particular for RV's and campers) just another scam ?
It's not Co2 - it's OZONE - which is produced by sunlight acting on
oxygen. This brakes down polymers with dual bonds. Some rubbers are a
LOT more succeptible to Ozone damage than others.
Peter Fairbrother
2024-11-15 21:27:57 UTC
Permalink
  I thought it was exposure to sunlight/UV that caused most of the
sidewall degradation ... or are those aftermarket tire covers (in
particular for RV's and campers) just another scam ?
It's usually the UV which does the damage, though ozone cracking can
also occur. Mostly tyres rely only on the carbon black for UV protection
- I don't know of any other anti-UV additives which are widely used in
tyres. Better tyres may however contain (more or better) antiozonants
(yes, a real word, and thing).

I haven't come across aftermarket tire covers, but if a tyre is going to
be exposed outside for long periods, like RVs and campers, on a first
look just to prevent UV exposure they would make sense. They might also
slow exposure to ozone by providing a physical boundary, or be lined
with something which is more reactive with ozone than tyres - likely, as
ozone reacts with most plastics and fibers.

Tyres are made to last for 5 to 7 years, because on a normal car they
would need replacing due to wear after this time. However a RV or camper
might not need type replacement due to wear for decades, so protection
from UV and ozone could save a lot of money.


Whitewall tyres were originally made using zinc oxide as pigment, but
they use titanium dioxide nowadays. White rubber is more susceptible to
UV than black, because the lampblack or carbon black which makes tyres
black also helps protect the rubber against UV.

The carbon black does several other things. It decreases susceptibility
to attack by oxygen, increases the thermal conductivity - important to
prevent parts of the tyre from getting too hot -, strengthens the
vulcanisation, increases the tensile strength of the rubber, and
increases abrasion resistance. Whew, good stuff!


Peter Fairbrother
Clare Snyder
2024-11-14 03:00:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob La Londe
Post by Clare Snyder
Post by Bob La Londe
I think I mentioned it in another thread.  Pickup trucks (classic bath
tub bed and std cab on a frame) are usually not very good unless they
have a load in the bed.  A 2wd open diff pickup would not be my choice
either that being said from 2001-2017 all my new service trucks were 2WD
with auto locking diffs.  (Chevy work trucks)  With the normal load of
tools, wire, and hardware they were "okay."  I did not unload them to go
hunting for instance.  As long as I stuck to the main trails until I
bailed out to walk I didn't even think about it.
Of course tires make a big difference.  When I ran trap lines back in
the 80s I used a Ford F150 2WD with stock diff and 31 x 10.5 tires.
With all my traps, coolers, and camp gear it did quite well.  If I
remembered to air down all four) it was passable on most sand, but it
would still sink in bottomless sugar sand.  I got it stuck a couple
times, but always got it out on my own.  Sometimes it took all day, but
that is the life of a wannabe professional outdoorsman.  Okay, my first
year I used a Plymouth Volare station wagon.  LOL  I think if it had the
same tires it would have been better than the pickup.
Bob La Londe
------------------------------
Ramblers did well in the Baja 500.
That definitely applied to my Ranger in 2WD. It was better in 4WD. If I
could get in somewhere with the bed empty I was sure to be able to get
out with a load of firewood. Only dirt bike skid recovery reflexes let
me drive the Ranger in 2WD on partly dry, partly icy pavement. A
particularly difficult icy commute home helped convince me to buy the
AWD CRV which was vastly better with (and good without) sticky
hydrophilic Michelin Arctic Alpine ice tires. A wet finger rubbed on
most tires slides, on the Michelins it grabs and squeaks.
Generally the only complaint I hear about Michelin tires is the price.
When I picked up my new truck I was actually a little disappointed to
see it came with Michelin truck tires. Now I'll have to wait a few
years to wear them out so I can upgrade to some ATs. I'm just to cheap
to replace otherwise perfectly good tires.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
Virtually every Michelin tire I have owned has had the sidewalls
checker and crack long before the tread wore out - and that goes back
to early 1960s? Michelin X tires and up to my last xlts. I've never
wore one out - - - - and they have hardened up to the point they would
have made good "burnout tires" even on a 4 or 6 cyl vehicle.
Yes, they all lasted over 6 years - but on many that was less than
30000 KM. REALLY burns to have to throw away expensive rubber with
over 80% tread left!!!!!
Virtually all tires have one major weakness. They degrade with exposure
to the C02 in the air. Buna (neoprene) rubber o-rings too. Buna-N,
Viton, and silicone much less so.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
I don't have the problem on my Nokians, didn't have on my Dunlops, or
my Coopers. My BFGs and Uniroyals were not as bad as the Michelins but
darn close. The Uniroyals were the only ones I wore out -less than
30,000Km
Jim Wilkins
2024-11-13 14:20:34 UTC
Permalink
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:vh0fpo$1p7o4$***@dont-email.me...

Flat out on the Autobahn?
You are kidding right? How much do you expect out of a flat head four?
Were you guys raiding the clinic and feeding it nitrous? Even then...
Um-no. LOL
-------------------------------------------
I was driving an officer to a remote field site and it's what he wanted. It
towed a water tank trailer because the radiator leaked and a replacement
wasn't available. I was told the Jeeps had some J C Whitney performance
components because Europe was starved for parts to compensate for the demand
and cost of Vietnam. At first we had some civilian vehicles such as a Chevy
Suburban but going 100 MPH everywhere and flying off sports car corners used
them up. F1 racing simulates German back roads, some built for foot traffic
by Romans.

The troops mostly stayed on base and had money to burn on vehicles, cameras,
stereos (and drugs). I was a rare exception who could go out because I
understood German and the 120 road signs we had to learn to get a drivers
license. Glatteisgefahr?
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