Speaking Of Welding

[Bob La Londe]

Richard kind of got me wound up. Well, Jim is not totally blameless
either.

I've got a few electric winches, and a couple trailers suitable for
making use of them to haul vehicles and such. The thing is none of them
are really setup for it. The little tandem axle flat bed had a receiver
tube welded on the tongue for a draw bar mounted winch, and I added a
similar type contraption to the bigger goose neck trailer. You might
recall I bragged about my well rounded master of no trades ability
hauling a couple full size 3/4 ton trucks on the goose neck last year.
Well both trailers have been used to haul vehicles and in most cases
they have been loaded with an 8oolb electric winch. The tractor just
drives right up the ramps on the goose neck, and my scissor lifts would
creep up the ramps on the low trailers after I made arched ramps for them.

I've decided to semi permanently mount the 8000lb winch on the low
trailer. I have more vehicles to move and the trailer will always have
more value with a 4 ton Warn on the front. I had a cheesy mount on it,
and it worked as I described above, but I decided to add a couple pieces
of C-channel inside the C-channel frame in the front for a nice clean
bolt through mount. The long term goal is to build a trailer tool box
around it after I have it all figured out, convert the trailer to a 7
pin plug for battery charging, and when I need to use it I can snatch a
couple deep cycles out of one of the boats. That way everything can be
covered and locked up, and right there when I need to go. I'll probably
even leave tie straps, chains, farm jack, and a few other things (like
the winch controller) in the box as well.

Well since you guys got me wound up I have spent most of the after noon
taking things apart, salvaging c-channel from a scrapped boat trailer,
cutting, grinding, and measuring just to get "prepared" to weld in one
piece of C-channel about 28 inches long. The other piece is already
there.

As, I have been preparing my debacle I happened to look at the welds on
the piece of C-Channel already there. Okay. I'm not sure it qualifies
as a UBS weld other than they haven't broken. Ugly But Strong? No.
Snot weld that miraculously didn't break would be more accurate.

The nice thing having the now mostly defunct draw bar mount for the
winch is it will make a great template for the bolt holes to mount the
inch. Well, that and I can cut the front plate out and weld it to
trailer to mount the fair lead. Not sure where exactly yet. The front
of the bed frame would be easiest, but In front of the bed might be
better if a little more work.

Well, now I need to wander back outside and mark that piece of channel
for cutting to fit.

[Bob La Londe]

Richard kind of got me wound up.  Well, Jim is not totally blameless
either.
I've got a few electric winches, and a couple trailers suitable for
making use of them to haul vehicles and such.  The thing is none of them
are really setup for it.  The little tandem axle flat bed had a receiver
tube welded on the tongue for a draw bar mounted winch, and I added a
similar type contraption to the bigger goose neck trailer.  You might
recall I bragged about my well rounded master of no trades ability
hauling a couple full size 3/4 ton trucks on the goose neck last year.
Well both trailers have been used to haul vehicles and in most cases
they have been loaded with an 8oolb electric winch.  The tractor just
drives right up the ramps on the goose neck, and my scissor lifts would
creep up the ramps on the low trailers after I made arched ramps for them.
I've decided to semi permanently mount the 8000lb winch on the low
trailer. I have more vehicles to move and the trailer will always have
more value with a 4 ton Warn on the front.  I had a cheesy mount on it,
and it worked as I described above, but I decided to add a couple pieces
of C-channel inside the C-channel frame in the front for a nice clean
bolt through mount.  The long term goal is to build a trailer tool box
around it after I have it all figured out, convert the trailer to a 7
pin plug for battery charging, and when I need to use it I can snatch a
couple deep cycles out of one of the boats.  That way everything can be
covered and locked up, and right there when I need to go.  I'll probably
even leave tie straps, chains, farm jack, and a few other things (like
the winch controller) in the box as well.
Well since you guys got me wound up I have spent most of the after noon
taking things apart, salvaging c-channel from a scrapped boat trailer,
cutting, grinding, and measuring just to get "prepared" to weld in one
piece of C-channel about 28 inches long.  The other piece is already there.
As, I have been preparing my debacle I happened to look at the welds on
the piece of C-Channel already there.  Okay.  I'm not sure it qualifies
as a UBS weld other than they haven't broken. Ugly But Strong?  No. Snot
weld that miraculously didn't break would be more accurate.
The nice thing having the now mostly defunct draw bar mount for the
winch is it will make a great template for the bolt holes to mount the
inch.  Well, that and I can cut the front plate out and weld it to
trailer to mount the fair lead.  Not sure where exactly yet.  The front
of the bed frame would be easiest, but In front of the bed might be
better if a little more work.
Well, now I need to wander back outside and mark that piece of channel
for cutting to fit.

I know I didn't mention the goose neck plans. I plan something similar
for it, but with a 12000 lb Badlands winch. I have a draw bar mount for
it that is rated for 12000lbs, but I think a solid mount on the trailer
will be much less headache doing things like dragging a shipping
container up on the trailer. Yeah, that's something I need to do too.

[Bob La Londe]

Richard kind of got me wound up.  Well, Jim is not totally blameless
either.
I've got a few electric winches, and a couple trailers suitable for
making use of them to haul vehicles and such.  The thing is none of
them are really setup for it.  The little tandem axle flat bed had a
receiver tube welded on the tongue for a draw bar mounted winch, and I
added a similar type contraption to the bigger goose neck trailer.
You might recall I bragged about my well rounded master of no trades
ability hauling a couple full size 3/4 ton trucks on the goose neck
last year. Well both trailers have been used to haul vehicles and in
most cases they have been loaded with an 8oolb electric winch.  The
tractor just drives right up the ramps on the goose neck, and my
scissor lifts would creep up the ramps on the low trailers after I
made arched ramps for them.
I've decided to semi permanently mount the 8000lb winch on the low
trailer. I have more vehicles to move and the trailer will always have
more value with a 4 ton Warn on the front.  I had a cheesy mount on
it, and it worked as I described above, but I decided to add a couple
pieces of C-channel inside the C-channel frame in the front for a nice
clean bolt through mount.  The long term goal is to build a trailer
tool box around it after I have it all figured out, convert the
trailer to a 7 pin plug for battery charging, and when I need to use
it I can snatch a couple deep cycles out of one of the boats.  That
way everything can be covered and locked up, and right there when I
need to go.  I'll probably even leave tie straps, chains, farm jack,
and a few other things (like the winch controller) in the box as well.
Well since you guys got me wound up I have spent most of the after
noon taking things apart, salvaging c-channel from a scrapped boat
trailer, cutting, grinding, and measuring just to get "prepared" to
weld in one piece of C-channel about 28 inches long.  The other piece
is already there.
As, I have been preparing my debacle I happened to look at the welds
on the piece of C-Channel already there.  Okay.  I'm not sure it
qualifies as a UBS weld other than they haven't broken. Ugly But
Strong?  No. Snot weld that miraculously didn't break would be more
accurate.
The nice thing having the now mostly defunct draw bar mount for the
winch is it will make a great template for the bolt holes to mount the
inch.  Well, that and I can cut the front plate out and weld it to
trailer to mount the fair lead.  Not sure where exactly yet.  The
front of the bed frame would be easiest, but In front of the bed might
be better if a little more work.
Well, now I need to wander back outside and mark that piece of channel
for cutting to fit.

I know I didn't mention the goose neck plans.  I plan something similar
for it, but with a 12000 lb Badlands winch.  I have a draw bar mount for
it that is rated for 12000lbs, but I think a solid mount on the trailer
will be much less headache doing things like dragging a shipping
container up on the trailer.  Yeah, that's something I need to do too.

Prepping the Job:

Still haven't done any welding. Cut the new piece to length and
discovered it was bowed. Not a lot, but enough the winch would have set
funny. The old piece is about flat, and the new piece was bowed up in
the middle. Set it on top across the frame of the tongue and took a ten
pound hammer to it. Took three blows. Close enough. I think I'm
getting old. In days past I would have set the hammer on the work to
measure my stroke before drawing up the hammer, but that was just to
darn much work. I drew up from the ground and told myself I just
wouldn't miss, and I didn't.

Then grinding off old paint and the protective coat of light rust steel
gets here in the desert. I must be getting old, or more likely rode
hard and put up wet one to many times. Used to be I wouldn't quit until
the job was done, but not today. I'm the one that's done.

Yeah, The Amp Hours Are Worth The Price:

Oh, yeah. Big AH batteries. I mentioned a while back I bought 4 8AH
batteries for my cordless stuff because the bigger batteries not only
last longer, but seemed to be able to feed current to the tool motors
better. I did all the cutting and grind, cutting old welds, sizing
stock, stripping paint, etc with my cordless angle grinder and one of
those batteries. It doesn't have the power of a corded grinder, but it
didn't feel like it was slowing me down either.

Stripping Steel:

You might also recall my adventures with the best disc for removing
paint, rust, and scale. I've come to a conclusion. Its a coarse grit
hard disc. Leaves a crappy finish compared to a flap disc or a stripper
wheel, but it lasts and doesn't seem to glaze over or get clogged up as
bad as they do.

[Jim Wilkins]

I must be getting old, or more likely rode hard and put up wet one to many
times. Used to be I wouldn't quit until the job was done, but not today.
I'm the one that's done.

You're lucky you can do anything outdoors. I have plans and incomplete
projects waiting too, but snow > rain > deep freeze have locked everything
outside into a glacier here. I barely cleared the car and shoveled a path to
the road in the brief gap between the rain and freeze, now it's a struggle
even to bring in firewood.

TV weather: "It's like 2 below with the wind chill."
This isn't the best time of the year to import wind from Canada, please wait
for July and August.

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Jim Wilkins

I must be getting old, or more likely rode hard and put up wet one to
many times.  Used to be I wouldn't quit until the job was done, but
not today. I'm the one that's done.

You're lucky you can do anything outdoors. I have plans and incomplete
projects waiting too, but snow > rain > deep freeze have locked
everything outside into a glacier here. I barely cleared the car and
shoveled a path to the road in the brief gap between the rain and
freeze, now it's a struggle even to bring in firewood.
TV weather: "It's like 2 below with the wind chill."
This isn't the best time of the year to import wind from Canada, please
wait for July and August.

I spent a grand total of one winter in cold and snow. That was enough
for me. I've heard people say you can dress for cold, but you can't
dress for heat.

Well, that's kind true, but...

You can dress for cold, but it can also restrict your movement. You can
walk down the driveway to check the mail if you have plowed the snow out
of the way first, but that implies you can dress for cold, but not snow.
In real cold you lose dexterity. Either from gloves, the cold, or
frost bite. If there is ice, you can dress for cold by wearing cleats.
Yeah, I can walk on ice with ordinary shoes too, but it takes more care,
and may limit other things I can do.

Growing up I had summer jobs "chopping cotton," and working in the grape
harvest. I wore a loose long sleeve shirt, jeans, and a hat. Under the
shade of the packing shed I could get away with lighter gear, but in the
sun those who did now have a higher risk of skin cancer. Some
overheated and dropped. On a hot summer day I have also lose dexterity
when work. I either wear gloves or tools and materials laying out in
the sun will burn my hands. You can also get conditioned (to some
extent) for the heat, and learn good practices. Drink water before you
get thirsty. When you actually get thirsty and push through you are
dehydrated and pushing through can make you dangerously dehydrated. It
may not be cool in the shade, but a little shade and some water for a
short break is all you need if you are conditioned to tolerate the heat.
To get conditioned you have to work in it.

In the end I can work more effectively on a 110F degree day in SW
Arizona more effectively than I can on a 5F day in Northern Ohio.

However those aren't extremes. On a 115-120+ day in Arizona (yes we
have them fairly often) You really need to limit your exposure, and be
aware of conditions that are even worse than the ambient temperature.
Pulling wire in an attic is so dangerous I used to limit myself to no
more than 5-10 minutes at a time up the ladder. Working in a hot black
asphalt parking lot is nearly as dangerous. I say nearly, because you
can always jump in your truck to get out of the sun for a few minutes.
You can't get out of the heat in an attic except by getting out of the
attic.

I've never had to work in 20F below, but as restricted as I was a 5F
above I imagine its just as limiting as work in a 120F+ degrees in the
desert.

I brag or show off my winter time weather, but you won't hear much
except complaining from me if I have to work outside in July and August.

As to conditioning... kids are stupid. My friends and I used to play
outside in the desert all summer long. Many a time I imagine somebody's
garden hose saved us from closer to dangerous dehydration than we knew.
We also got conditioned to the heat. Not impervious, but conditioned to
tolerate it and knowledgeable about how to manage it. Riding my
motorcycle back across the Sonoran desert to get home there was more
than once I pulled off at any sign of farming to dunk my shirt and my
helmet in a canal to cool off. It dries out quick, but it adds 30 miles
to your range. Nearly as much as a drink of cool (not cold) water and a
few minutes break in the shade.

The thing I never learned to manage was hot and humid. If there is a
way I can't fathom it. In Northern Ohio I saw what I called 90/90
plenty of days in the summer. Over 90 degrees and over 90% humidity.
That was just miserable. When I saw temps approaching 110F my
grandmother said read the obits in the next few days and you will see
many older people without air conditioning who succumbed in their homes.
I could work for a little while, but because I had no natural cooling
at those high humidities I had to take twice the breaks to recover. I
can't imagine living and working in the old south where they see 110F+
and 90-99% humidity routinely.

See, you got me all wound up again Jim. I want to get outside and get
more work done before summer.

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Jim Wilkins

I must be getting old, or more likely rode hard and put up wet one to
many times.  Used to be I wouldn't quit until the job was done, but
not today. I'm the one that's done.

You're lucky you can do anything outdoors. I have plans and incomplete
projects waiting too, but snow > rain > deep freeze have locked
everything outside into a glacier here. I barely cleared the car and
shoveled a path to the road in the brief gap between the rain and
freeze, now it's a struggle even to bring in firewood.
TV weather: "It's like 2 below with the wind chill."
This isn't the best time of the year to import wind from Canada,
please wait for July and August.

I spent a grand total of one winter in cold and snow.  That was enough
for me.  I've heard people say you can dress for cold, but you can't
dress for heat.
Well, that's kind true, but...
You can dress for cold, but it can also restrict your movement.  You can
walk down the driveway to check the mail if you have plowed the snow out
of the way first, but that implies you can dress for cold, but not snow.
 In real cold you lose dexterity.  Either from gloves, the cold, or
frost bite.  If there is ice, you can dress for cold by wearing cleats.
Yeah, I can walk on ice with ordinary shoes too, but it takes more care,
and may limit other things I can do.
Growing up I had summer jobs "chopping cotton," and working in the grape
harvest.  I wore a loose long sleeve shirt, jeans, and a hat.  Under the
shade of the packing shed I could get away with lighter gear, but in the
sun those who did now have a higher risk of skin cancer.  Some
overheated and dropped.  On a hot summer day I have also lose dexterity
when work.  I either wear gloves or tools and materials laying out in
the sun will burn my hands.  You can also get conditioned (to some
extent) for the heat, and learn good practices.  Drink water before you
get thirsty.  When you actually get thirsty and push through you are
dehydrated and pushing through can make you dangerously dehydrated.  It
may not be cool in the shade, but a little shade and some water for a
short break is all you need if you are conditioned to tolerate the heat.
 To get conditioned you have to work in it.
In the end I can work more effectively on a 110F degree day in SW
Arizona more effectively than I can on a 5F day in Northern Ohio.
However those aren't extremes.  On a 115-120+ day in Arizona (yes we
have them fairly often) You really need to limit your exposure, and be
aware of conditions that are even worse than the ambient temperature.
Pulling wire in an attic is so dangerous I used to limit myself to no
more than 5-10 minutes at a time up the ladder.  Working in a hot black
asphalt parking lot is nearly as dangerous.  I say nearly, because you
can always jump in your truck to get out of the sun for a few minutes.
You can't get out of the heat in an attic except by getting out of the
attic.
I've never had to work in 20F below, but as restricted as I was a 5F
above I imagine its just as limiting as work in a 120F+ degrees in the
desert.
I brag or show off my winter time weather, but you won't hear much
except complaining from me if I have to work outside in July and August.
As to conditioning... kids are stupid.  My friends and I used to play
outside in the desert all summer long.  Many a time I imagine somebody's
garden hose saved us from closer to dangerous dehydration than we knew.
We also got conditioned to the heat.  Not impervious, but conditioned to
tolerate it and knowledgeable about how to manage it.  Riding my
motorcycle back across the Sonoran desert to get home there was more
than once I pulled off at any sign of farming to dunk my shirt and my
helmet in a canal to cool off.  It dries out quick, but it adds 30 miles
to your range.  Nearly as much as a drink of cool (not cold) water and a
few minutes break in the shade.
The thing I never learned to manage was hot and humid.  If there is a
way I can't fathom it.  In Northern Ohio I saw what I called 90/90
plenty of days in the summer.  Over 90 degrees and over 90% humidity.
That was just miserable.  When I saw temps approaching

CORRECTION: Approaching 100, not 110. Never saw temps over a 100 in
Ohio.

my

grandmother said read the obits in the next few days and you will see
many older people without air conditioning who succumbed in their homes.
 I could work for a little while, but because I had no natural cooling
at those high humidities I had to take twice the breaks to recover.  I
can't imagine living and working in the old south where they see 110F+
and 90-99% humidity routinely.
See, you got me all wound up again Jim.  I want to get outside and get
more work done before summer.

[Clare Snyder]

Post by Bob La Londe
CORRECTION: Approaching 100, not 110. Never saw temps over a 100 in
Ohio.

Not common here in Ontario but I've seen over 100 several times over
the years - over 80% RH.
In Zambia 115F in the shade was not terribly uncommon in October - and
in Livingstone, next to Victoria Falls, on those days 90% RH was
"dry"!!!!

On those days NOTHING got done!!! (In the seventies Air Conditioning
was virtually un heard of outside of luxury hotels (and not even
common there.) and even Mercedes cars were generally not air
conditioned (partly due to taxation issues)

Post by Bob La Londe
my

Post by Bob La Londe
grandmother said read the obits in the next few days and you will see
many older people without air conditioning who succumbed in their homes.
 I could work for a little while, but because I had no natural cooling
at those high humidities I had to take twice the breaks to recover.  I
can't imagine living and working in the old south where they see 110F+
and 90-99% humidity routinely.
See, you got me all wound up again Jim.  I want to get outside and get
more work done before summer.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

[Richard Smith]

Post by Bob La Londe
...
The thing I never learned to manage was hot and humid. If there is a
way I can't fathom it. In Northern Ohio I saw what I called 90/90
plenty of days in the summer. Over 90 degrees and over 90%
humidity. That was just miserable. ...
...

I experienced that - what you call "90/90".
I worked in a research foundry.
Thing was that onlookers were unlikely to think of - surely when the
temperature goes up, with the same unchanged amount of water (moisture)
in the air, the relative humidity must go down(?). So sweating works.
Problem was "home" - an apartment right under the asphalt'ed roof...
Having a friend of the female persuasion around was not for the
heterosexually faint-hearted... :-)

[Snag]

Post by Richard Smith

Post by Bob La Londe
...
The thing I never learned to manage was hot and humid. If there is a
way I can't fathom it. In Northern Ohio I saw what I called 90/90
plenty of days in the summer. Over 90 degrees and over 90%
humidity. That was just miserable. ...
...

I experienced that - what you call "90/90".
I worked in a research foundry.
Thing was that onlookers were unlikely to think of - surely when the
temperature goes up, with the same unchanged amount of water (moisture)
in the air, the relative humidity must go down(?). So sweating works.
Problem was "home" - an apartment right under the asphalt'ed roof...
Having a friend of the female persuasion around was not for the
heterosexually faint-hearted... :-)

When you said "Hey baby , wanna get sweaty?" you MEANT it ! There's
somethin' to be said about slippin' an' slidin' ...

[Richard Smith]

Post by Snag

Post by Richard Smith

Post by Bob La Londe
...
The thing I never learned to manage was hot and humid. If there is a
way I can't fathom it. In Northern Ohio I saw what I called 90/90
plenty of days in the summer. Over 90 degrees and over 90%
humidity. That was just miserable. ...
...

I experienced that - what you call "90/90".
I worked in a research foundry.
Thing was that onlookers were unlikely to think of - surely when the
temperature goes up, with the same unchanged amount of water (moisture)
in the air, the relative humidity must go down(?). So sweating works.
Problem was "home" - an apartment right under the asphalt'ed roof...
Having a friend of the female persuasion around was not for the
heterosexually faint-hearted... :-)

When you said "Hey baby , wanna get sweaty?" you MEANT it ! There's
somethin' to be said about slippin' an' slidin' ...

Happy days... :-)
It was a very happy time, with both working and feeling happy in my time-out.

[Jim Wilkins]

I've heard people say you can dress for cold, but you can't dress for
heat. Well, that's kind true, but...
The thing I never learned to manage was hot and humid.

-------------------------------
I've found soft and flexible warm clothing, mostly at Walmart. I'm wearing a
sweat top that doubles for pajamas for its hood, a quilted shirt and a pile
lined hoodie, plus lined pants. In this I'm comfortable at 60F napping and
55F moving around a little. My mother's olde New England side of the family
tolerated cold, she'd leave the thermostat at 60F until my father got up. My
sister doesn't mind it much either. I think we have a little Viking ancestry
from the Norman Conquest.

Despite our northerly latitude NH sometimes gets Gulf of Amexica heat and
humidity, daytime highs pushing 100F and 75+ lows at night, the dew point.
Florida hurricanes often reach us and Hurricane Katrina passed over us as a
rain storm. I can eventually get used to it, even Atlanta summer climate
when visiting my father's family. In the Air Corps my father was a company
commander, my mother's brother his top sergeant.

I was downtown in Concord NH the day the bank thermometer showed 104F, our
record.

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Jim Wilkins

I've heard people say you can dress for cold, but you can't dress for
heat. Well, that's kind true, but...
The thing I never learned to manage was hot and humid.

-------------------------------
I've found soft and flexible warm clothing, mostly at Walmart. I'm
wearing a sweat top that doubles for pajamas for its hood, a quilted
shirt and a pile lined hoodie, plus lined pants. In this I'm comfortable
at 60F napping and 55F moving around a little. My mother's olde New
England side of the family tolerated cold, she'd leave the thermostat at
60F until my father got up. My sister doesn't mind it much either. I
think we have a little Viking ancestry from the Norman Conquest.
Despite our northerly latitude NH sometimes gets Gulf of Amexica heat
and humidity, daytime highs pushing 100F and 75+ lows at night, the dew
point. Florida hurricanes often reach us and Hurricane Katrina passed
over us as a rain storm. I can eventually get used to it, even Atlanta
summer climate when visiting my father's family. In the Air Corps my
father was a company commander, my mother's brother his top sergeant.
I was downtown in Concord NH the day the bank thermometer showed 104F,
our record.

Okay, now we are all now officially old. We're sitting around talking
about the weather.

[Snag]

Post by Jim Wilkins

I've heard people say you can dress for cold, but you can't dress for
heat. Well, that's kind true, but...
The thing I never learned to manage was hot and humid.

-------------------------------
I've found soft and flexible warm clothing, mostly at Walmart. I'm
wearing a sweat top that doubles for pajamas for its hood, a quilted
shirt and a pile lined hoodie, plus lined pants. In this I'm
comfortable at 60F napping and 55F moving around a little. My mother's
olde New England side of the family tolerated cold, she'd leave the
thermostat at 60F until my father got up. My sister doesn't mind it
much either. I think we have a little Viking ancestry from the Norman
Conquest.
Despite our northerly latitude NH sometimes gets Gulf of Amexica heat
and humidity, daytime highs pushing 100F and 75+ lows at night, the
dew point. Florida hurricanes often reach us and Hurricane Katrina
passed over us as a rain storm. I can eventually get used to it, even
Atlanta summer climate when visiting my father's family. In the Air
Corps my father was a company commander, my mother's brother his top
sergeant.
I was downtown in Concord NH the day the bank thermometer showed 104F,
our record.

Okay, now we are all now officially old.  We're sitting around talking
about the weather.

Oh Shit , my last post ... you're right !

OK , got any good loads for a .222 Rem using 50/52/55 gr bullets ? A
wide selection of powders is available .

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Jim Wilkins

I've heard people say you can dress for cold, but you can't dress
for heat. Well, that's kind true, but...
The thing I never learned to manage was hot and humid.

-------------------------------
I've found soft and flexible warm clothing, mostly at Walmart. I'm
wearing a sweat top that doubles for pajamas for its hood, a quilted
shirt and a pile lined hoodie, plus lined pants. In this I'm
comfortable at 60F napping and 55F moving around a little. My
mother's olde New England side of the family tolerated cold, she'd
leave the thermostat at 60F until my father got up. My sister doesn't
mind it much either. I think we have a little Viking ancestry from
the Norman Conquest.
Despite our northerly latitude NH sometimes gets Gulf of Amexica heat
and humidity, daytime highs pushing 100F and 75+ lows at night, the
dew point. Florida hurricanes often reach us and Hurricane Katrina
passed over us as a rain storm. I can eventually get used to it, even
Atlanta summer climate when visiting my father's family. In the Air
Corps my father was a company commander, my mother's brother his top
sergeant.
I was downtown in Concord NH the day the bank thermometer showed
104F, our record.

Okay, now we are all now officially old.  We're sitting around talking
about the weather.

 Oh Shit , my last post ... you're right !
  OK , got any good loads for a .222 Rem using 50/52/55 gr bullets ? A
wide selection of powders is available .

For varmint I use .223 50gr hollow points to reach out there or .22WMR
out to about 125. All factory loads. I really like the 50gr American
Eagle HP. My target/varmint 223 barrel drops them so close together if
I told you you'd think I was exaggerating. Not sure you can still get
those American Eagle's, but I have a couple left.

I get a little frustrated with all the different rounds/calibers/loads
out there these days. There isn't anything in North America you can't
drop with the 119 year old 30-06 (even older if you remember its derived
from 30-03). Light bullet for deer or antelope way out there, or
heavier bullet for elk or brown bear. Maybe a bit much for varmint, but
Remington did load a .22 sabot round for it some decades back. I think
it was called the accelerator.

Mostly I just hunt birds. Shotgun or pellet gun depending on the species.

[Leon Fisk]

On Thu, 20 Feb 2025 11:55:15 -0700
Bob La Londe <***@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Bob La Londe
I get a little frustrated with all the different rounds/calibers/loads
out there these days...

Thought this "Federal 7mm Backcountry" was interesting. Has been in the
recent issues of a couple magazines. Mostly interested in what the case
and powder could do for current ammo, like the .223 and such🤔

I just read about the new stuff. Haven't shot a powder burner in
decades🙄

https://www.federalpremium.com/backcountry.html

[Jim Wilkins]

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:vp8001$2ucs0$***@dont-email.me...

On Thu, 20 Feb 2025 11:55:15 -0700
Bob La Londe <***@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Bob La Londe
I get a little frustrated with all the different rounds/calibers/loads
out there these days...

Thought this "Federal 7mm Backcountry" was interesting. Has been in the
recent issues of a couple magazines. Mostly interested in what the case
and powder could do for current ammo, like the .223 and such🤔

I just read about the new stuff. Haven't shot a powder burner in
decades🙄

https://www.federalpremium.com/backcountry.html
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

-------------------------------------

Here in the densely vegetated Northeast it's rare to be able to see over 200
yards, .30-.30 range. The lower growth tends to be evergreens that restrict
the view through winter. I've hunted in Colorado where an uncle was a guide
and recognize the need for longer range out there. I was still in 5 mile
running condition but needed a week to acclimate to splitting firewood at
9000 feet. Here that's twice the tree line altitude, out there they grow
tall at 10,000.
jsw

[Jim Wilkins]

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:vp8001$2ucs0$***@dont-email.me...

I just read about the new stuff. Haven't shot a powder burner in
decades🙄

https://www.federalpremium.com/backcountry.html
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

---------------------------------------------

Here's a patent on it:
https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/patent-from-federal-covering-case-design-of-the-new-7mm-backcountry.375433/

I somewhat lightly studied a range of military technologies when I was a lab
manager at a facility doing government research, so I could show a little
buzzword knowledge in case asked to join a project. I'd found that there was
a good niche for a hands-on technician who knew something of mechanical,
electrical and optical engineering, and very few to fill it. I didn't know
enough for leading edge original design but I did to flesh out the details
and to troubleshoot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federally_funded_research_and_development_centers

[Jim Wilkins]

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:vp8001$2ucs0$***@dont-email.me...

Thought this "Federal 7mm Backcountry" was interesting. Has been in the
recent issues of a couple magazines. Mostly interested in what the case
and powder could do for current ammo, like the .223 and such🤔

-----------------------------------

Standard rifle ammo is little different from what Mauser introduced around
1890.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.65%C3%9753mm_Mauser

Magnums are only slightly newer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.375_H%26H_Magnum

Hatcher's Notebook explains the technology in considerable detail.
https://ia601302.us.archive.org/3/items/Hatchers_Notebook/Hatchers_Notebook_text.pdf
The text stamped on the case head actually improves the strength through
cold working.

The yield strength of hard drawn/stamped brass sets current ammo pressure
limits. It's similar to mild steel but more brittle, and is of course
rustproof which matters to the military. Some bolt actions have been proofed
to handle 120,000 PSI or more if the cases could. Stronger cases can be
turned on a lathe for testing but would be unaffordable in production.
Forming the metal cases more or less paced firearm improvement since they
were introduced in 1808. Smokeless powder that didn't foul the barrel almost
immediately permitted modern action and ammunition design which was
substantially perfected before WW1.

[Leon Fisk]

On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 09:14:00 -0500
"Jim Wilkins" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Jim Wilkins
The yield strength of hard drawn/stamped brass sets current ammo pressure
limits. It's similar to mild steel but more brittle, and is of course
rustproof which matters to the military. Some bolt actions have been proofed
to handle 120,000 PSI or more if the cases could.

That new Federal steel case is designed for 80,000 PSI as the standard
load. The material is suppose to be able to expand slightly to help
keep the case locked in the chamber and not blow back against the bolt
as hard. Can be reloaded too but didn't see any detail on that yet. Not
that I went looking for it either.

Speculation was that it will be used to boost older rounds pressure too
for newer guns that could probably handle the higher pressure...

[Snag]

Post by Leon Fisk
On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 09:14:00 -0500
<snip>

Post by Jim Wilkins
The yield strength of hard drawn/stamped brass sets current ammo pressure
limits. It's similar to mild steel but more brittle, and is of course
rustproof which matters to the military. Some bolt actions have been proofed
to handle 120,000 PSI or more if the cases could.

That new Federal steel case is designed for 80,000 PSI as the standard
load. The material is suppose to be able to expand slightly to help
keep the case locked in the chamber and not blow back against the bolt
as hard. Can be reloaded too but didn't see any detail on that yet. Not
that I went looking for it either.
Speculation was that it will be used to boost older rounds pressure too
for newer guns that could probably handle the higher pressure...

https://www.federalpremium.com/backcountry.html

There is a link to hand loading info at this link that Jim Wilkins
posted .

[Jim Wilkins]

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:vpa2g8$3e2fq$***@dont-email.me...

That new Federal steel case is designed for 80,000 PSI as the standard
load. The material is suppose to be able to expand slightly to help
keep the case locked in the chamber and not blow back against the bolt
as hard. Can be reloaded too but didn't see any detail on that yet. Not
that I went looking for it either.

Speculation was that it will be used to boost older rounds pressure too
for newer guns that could probably handle the higher pressure...
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

----------------------------------

If it erodes rifling faster it may not become popular, as with the .264 Win
Mag. Battleship gun bores eroded enough that the ballistic computer
computation included compensation for the number of rounds fired, and the
rifling was in replaceable liners. "All Quiet on the Western Front" states
that German artillery barrels were so worn towards the end that the slowest
shells would fall short into the German lines. I've read that double base
powder burns hotter and causes faster wear than single base.

https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/firearm-hunting/caliber-battle-6-5-creedmoor-vs-264-win-mag

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/1eou9sg/sailors_aboard_uss_new_jersey_bb62_work_to_trim/

[Leon Fisk]

On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 11:45:07 -0500

Post by Jim Wilkins
If it erodes rifling faster it may not become popular, as with the .264 Win
Mag.

They (Federal) claim it's not a problem🤷

Different subject...

There's a new Winchester .21 Sharp rimfire too. The case is the same as
.22 Long Rifle but the bullet is fully seated inside the case, thus the
.21 cal. Solves an old bullet shape problem with the .22. It will fit in
standard .22 rifles and fire but accuracy will suffer due to poor
contact with the rifling. Already a few new rifles available for it.

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Leon Fisk
That new Federal steel case is designed for 80,000 PSI as the standard
load. The material is suppose to be able to expand slightly to help
keep the case locked in the chamber and not blow back against the bolt
as hard. Can be reloaded too but didn't see any detail on that yet. Not
that I went looking for it either.
Speculation was that it will be used to boost older rounds pressure too
for newer guns that could probably handle the higher pressure...
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids  MI
----------------------------------
If it erodes rifling faster it may not become popular, as with the .264
Win Mag. Battleship gun bores eroded enough that the ballistic computer
computation included compensation for the number of rounds fired, and
the rifling was in replaceable liners. "All Quiet on the Western Front"
states that German artillery barrels were so worn towards the end that
the slowest shells would fall short into the German lines. I've read
that double base powder burns hotter and causes faster wear than single
base.
https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/firearm-hunting/caliber-battle-6-5-
creedmoor-vs-264-win-mag
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/1eou9sg/
sailors_aboard_uss_new_jersey_bb62_work_to_trim/

Ha! Yep. Pretty much what I was saying in my other post.

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Leon Fisk
Thought this "Federal 7mm Backcountry" was interesting. Has been in the
recent issues of a couple magazines. Mostly interested in what the case
and powder could do for current ammo, like the .223 and such🤔
-----------------------------------
Standard rifle ammo is little different from what Mauser introduced
around 1890.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.65%C3%9753mm_Mauser
Magnums are only slightly newer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.375_H%26H_Magnum
Hatcher's Notebook explains the technology in considerable detail.
https://ia601302.us.archive.org/3/items/Hatchers_Notebook/
Hatchers_Notebook_text.pdf
The text stamped on the case head actually improves the strength through
cold working.
The yield strength of hard drawn/stamped brass sets current ammo
pressure limits. It's similar to mild steel but more brittle, and is of
course rustproof which matters to the military. Some bolt actions have
been proofed to handle 120,000 PSI or more if the cases could. Stronger
cases can be turned on a lathe for testing but would be unaffordable in
production. Forming the metal cases more or less paced firearm
improvement since they were introduced in 1808. Smokeless powder that
didn't foul the barrel almost immediately permitted modern action and
ammunition design which was substantially perfected before WW1.

Slight tangent to the tangent here...

There may be another issue with more powerful cartridges. Most steel
barrels have a finite peak operational life of a few thousand rounds.
They will still contain the bang, but throat erosion, and rifling damage
take a toll on accuracy. For a typical American hunting rifle this may
be the lifetime of several generations of hunter. For a targe,
plinking, or combat rifle this can be much less time, because it is used
a lot more. When you add hyper velocity rounds to the mix the life is
severely shortened. I often wondered if that may have been why
Remington discontinued the 30-06 accelerator. I suspect it was just
because 223 and 22-250 was cheaper for varmint hunting.

Yeah, I know 4150 is better than 4140, and chrome lined bores have an
impact on barrel life, but generally rifles used with hyper velocity
ammunition will experience a much shortened barrel life.

There are alternatives of course. A heavier projectile is one. We have
two ways to get a heavier projectile. Make it longer or increase the
diameter. In the US for private sporting use we are limited to .50
caliber. That means make it longer. As is well documented a longer
bullet requires a faster spin rate. We saw that in the M16 and AR15
class of rifles with longer heavier bullets.

Side Note: I'm pretty sure I have mentioned it here before, but my
father in law, Robert F Perry, was the engineer in charge of building
the M16 production line at General Motors Hydramatic. He claimed he was
the one who solved the stability issue with the M16-A1 shooting longer
heavier bullets by increasing the rifling rate and spinning the bullet
faster.

In any case I'm moderately arm chair familiar with the issues.

The whole thing about 556/M16 being designed to tumble and maximize
damage was a myth. It was a problem solved by a faster rifling rate for
the heavier bullets.

Reductio Ad Absurdum: How fast do we need to spin a 4 inch bullet
traveling at Mach 3 in order to stabilize it? What do we need to slow
down barrel burn out if we are pushing it at Mach 6?

Its all solvable of course, but its going to take some figuring out.

~~~~

What is that? Looks like an animal was run over repeatedly by a D9 Cat.

Oh, its the Elk Jim shot with his brand new Mach 6 Ruger American rifle
shooting 50 caliber 2000 grain pointed soft point boat tails at Mach 6.4.

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Bob La Londe
~~~~
What is that? Looks like an animal was run over repeatedly by a D9 Cat.
Oh, its the Elk Jim shot with his brand new Mach 6 Ruger American rifle
shooting 50 caliber 2000 grain pointed soft point boat tails at Mach 6.4.

So where is Jim?

In the hospital with a broken shoulder from the recoil.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:vpag0h$3gbka$***@dont-email.me...

So where is Jim?

In the hospital with a broken shoulder from the recoil.

Bob La Londe
-----------------------------------
the big elephant rifles were claimed to kill at one end and maim at the
other.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:vpafle$3gbk9$***@dont-email.me...

Reductio Ad Absurdum: How fast do we need to spin a 4 inch bullet
traveling at Mach 3 in order to stabilize it? What do we need to slow
down barrel burn out if we are pushing it at Mach 6?

Its all solvable of course, but its going to take some figuring out.

~~~~

What is that? Looks like an animal was run over repeatedly by a D9 Cat.

Oh, its the Elk Jim shot with his brand new Mach 6 Ruger American rifle
shooting 50 caliber 2000 grain pointed soft point boat tails at Mach 6.4.

Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

------------------------------------

The older Greenhill bullet stability formula:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_George_Greenhill

The newer Miller formula:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_twist_rule

I chronographed a 30-06 Accelerator at 4100FPS. They weren't all that
accurate and the 22-250 may be a better choice. Our M16 bullets slowed
through Mach 1 before 500 yards and lost accuracy, as we could see on the
demonstration target.

You could pull a muscle trying to cock a .50 BMG. I'd want a tree between me
and the rifle. Fighter planes slowed down while firing them.

This is the biggest gun I've seen for sale in a gun store.
https://www.poulinauctions.com/2024/04/20/finnish-lahti-model-39-20mm-anti-tank-rifle-with-ammo-transit-chest/

Before GCA 1968 you could freely own these, I think from the same source as
Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25_mm_Hotchkiss_anti-tank_gun

The evidence shows that the second JFK bullet (CE 399) didn't tumble but it
turned sideways in him and made an oval hole in Connelly's suit. See his
collar area in Zapruder frame 223 for the timing, though he recalled being
hit later. This is the stable position for a moving cylinder, as an end
tilted forward will have higher drag. Shoot a dowel up with a bow and watch
it fall. The usual photo of this "magic bullet" doesn't show that it was
compressed sideways instead of end-on. Connelly was on a jump seat, offset
toward JFK's left instead of ahead of him, and turning to look back so their
wounds do align. A recent update is that an agent claimed he found the
bullet in the car and placed it on Connelly's gurney from which it was heard
to fall.

The first bullet may have glanced off the traffic signal support, losing its
copper jacket which may have been seen falling, struck the curb near the
triple overpass, and sent a concrete chip into James Tague's cheek. Oswald's
aftermarket scope mount, his line of sight, was higher than usual above the
bore to clear the bolt handle. The support wasn't properly examined in place
because the FBI reconstruction assumed the driver was centered in the lane,
while a film shows him crowding the line leftward. When finally taken down
after an accident it was too weathered to tell much.

You think too small.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-gas_gun
"Range-G utilizes interchangeable launch tubes ranging from a bore diameter
of 3.3 inches (84 mm) to 8.0 inches (200 mm) with a 14.0-inch (360 mm)
piston weighing up to 2,300 pounds (1,000 kg). Projectile velocities can
reach 4.5 kilometres per second (16,000 km/h) for the 8.0-inch (200 mm)
configuration and 7 kilometres per second (25,000 km/h) for the 3.3-inch (84
mm) launcher configuration."

Airgun battleship:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vesuvius_(1888)

The Welin breech block for big guns is a challenging machining exercise:
https://grabcad.com/library/welin-breech-lock-3d-model-1
As I understand it, the process is an extension of turning formed gear
milling cutters, in which the carriage is cammed in and out as the spindle
rotates.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6216382-private-baldrick-would-you-like-some-rat-au-van-sir

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Jim Wilkins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vesuvius_(1888)

One of my UPS drivers told me somebody in my area, one of my
"neighbors," was doing research on modern pneumatic cannons (15 years
ago give or take) for military application. I don't know any of the
details and he never told me who it was.

Getting into pneumatics, with natural nitrogen oxygen "air" there is a
velocity limitation, but it might be faster than you might think. No
its not using the vacuum and membrane method. Just straight pneumatic
push against one atmosphere in the barrel.

Now guys have pushed velocities using helium with knock valve (PCP) type
guns, but helium is expensive compared to air.

The way I remember the fast air guns operating with regular air was
instead of releasing a burst of air behind the projectile, they locked
it in place to seal an air chamber. They pressurized the air chamber,
and then they released the locks holding the projectile in place. I
seem to recall they were getting about 2700ish FPS. Its not all that
fast compared to a lot of powder burners, but its plenty fast enough.
Insane for a theoretical airgun. This was with a test rig in a
lab/workshop. I don't recall if they built any practical rifles using
the design.

My fastest pneumatic shoots a 14.3 grain .22 pellet around 1150 FPS per
a chronograph. Not the lie printed on the box by a manufacturer. I
have have a couple I could tune faster, but I have them tuned for good
shot count. My current favorite shoots 25.4 grain .25 pellet at about
900-920 FPS with a shot count in that speed range of about 26-27 shots.
I can shoot more, but they start to drop off in velocity. It hits with
authority in small game. With the stock "moderator" the action is louder
than the puff of air. Without the moderator my neighbors might complain.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:vpb6or$3kr8r$***@dont-email.me...

Getting into pneumatics, with natural nitrogen oxygen "air" there is a
velocity limitation, but it might be faster than you might think.

----------------------------------

I understand Mach 1 being a "choked" flow speed limit since it's the
temperature but not pressure dependent average speed of the individual air
molecules. Lighter molecules like Helium move faster to have the same
kinetic energy at the same temperature, heavy CO2 moves slower. Going beyond
with DeLaval nozzles etc is beyond my slim knowledge of fluid dynamics
(rocket science).

[Jim Wilkins]

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:vpcgpq$3ulgs$***@dont-email.me...

I understand Mach 1 being a "choked" flow speed limit since it's the
temperature but not pressure dependent average speed of the individual air
molecules.

--------------------------------

That's an oversimplification of a complex subject.
https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/molecular-speed-formula/

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Bob La Londe
Getting into pneumatics, with natural nitrogen oxygen "air" there is a
velocity limitation, but it might be faster than you might think.
----------------------------------
I understand Mach 1 being a "choked" flow speed limit since it's the
temperature but not pressure dependent average speed of the individual
air molecules. Lighter molecules like Helium move faster to have the
same kinetic energy at the same temperature, heavy CO2 moves slower.
Going beyond with DeLaval nozzles etc is beyond my slim knowledge of
fluid dynamics (rocket science).

I think the primary reason Mach 1 is a choke point is that the
projectile experiences excessive turbulence and reduced stability as it
passes through the sound barrier. Its why long range .22LR shooters
typically shoot subsonic and adjust elevation. To stay below the sound
barrier. Its also why .22 magnum shooters tends to limit shots to
100-125 yards depending on the exact round. To stay above the sound
barrier.

I have tuned air guns fast enough to break the sound barrier. The
thunder crack of the pellet is the loudest part of the shot cycle. Even
louder than the air blast from an un-moderated air rifle. Accuracy
suffers, but its quite the pop. It just doesn't break it by enough to
be useful with traditional PCPs.

Subsonic tends to be the default because its hard to get above Mach 1
long enough to be useful for the longer range shots that would benefit
from it.

I don't have an answer exactly as to why traditional .22LR high velocity
tends to limit to about 75 yards, other than that is the apx far zero
for the maximum length of "point blank range." It varies depending on
the gun, the setup, and the round, but I seem to recall its something
like with a typical scope height your are 1.25-1.5 above bore/trajectory
at the muzzle. Zero around 15 and zero around 75.

I'm going to pull up the ballistic calculator I use on my phone hold on
a minute.

The trajectory passes zero at around 15-18 yards, rises a tiny bit more
than one inch above at apogee, drops through the far zero just past 70
and an inch below around 75-80. Since for some stupid reason .22s tend
to be crazy accurate (generalization) compared to other rifles this
gives you a "maximum point blank range" of about 80 yards. Give or take.

By the way, this dual zero if you have your ballistics figured out
allows you to rough sight in a rifle at a fairly short range. In fact
it allows you to bore sight (bolt guns of course) if you have a good eye
for concentricity a decent rough zero before even going to the range.
Just make sure your neighbors don't freak about at you sighting a rifle
through the window at their weather vane.

I don't recall the author or the name, but there is a science fiction
work (short story I think) about an astronaut greeting a generation
fleet of aliens coming to earth to colonize and take over. Since they
have been in space for so many generations they no longer know anything
about aerodynamics, and none of their craft have wings. Everybody
thinks he is a traitor because he teaches them how to build air foils
and how to fly. He calculates every inch of their approach from space
to ground level. And the entire fleet breaks up in the atmosphere and
crashes, because he had the fleet flying at exactly the speed of sound
at every elevation for the entire entry. Nobody notices the single lone
parachute somewhere over the breadbasket of America.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:vpi6op$15ca6$***@dont-email.me...

By the way, this dual zero if you have your ballistics figured out
allows you to rough sight in a rifle at a fairly short range. In fact
it allows you to bore sight (bolt guns of course) if you have a good eye
for concentricity a decent rough zero before even going to the range.
Bob La Londe

---------------------------------------

In Army Basic we zeroed our M16s at 25 yards and they were close enough to
300. There was a flip-up taller sight for greater distance though we never
used it, our furthest practice / scoring targets were at 300.
https://primaryandsecondary.com/battlesight-zero/
Loading Image...

The old way:
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/list/Item.aspx/883/2
Mine is graduated 0 to 2.5" for moderately long shots.

[Leon Fisk]

On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 09:29:15 -0700
Bob La Londe <***@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Bob La Londe
I think the primary reason Mach 1 is a choke point is that the
projectile experiences excessive turbulence and reduced stability as it
passes through the sound barrier...

Maybe old news you've already heard...

Hornady did some research on their tips, found that a flat meplat works
better for long range.

===
The approach decreases dispersion at long range by optimizing bullet
tip shape to provide excellent overall drag and unrivaled
bullet-to-bullet consistency. Specifically, the meplat must be flat—not
pointed—and the diameter of the flat meplat is a specific ratio to the
bullet diameter. The new technology decreases the drag variation from
shot to shot, resulting in less dispersion at long range...
===

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/hornady-introduces-patented-drag-variability-reduction-technology/

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Leon Fisk
On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 09:29:15 -0700
<snip>

Post by Bob La Londe
I think the primary reason Mach 1 is a choke point is that the
projectile experiences excessive turbulence and reduced stability as it
passes through the sound barrier...

Maybe old news you've already heard...
Hornady did some research on their tips, found that a flat meplat works
better for long range.
===
The approach decreases dispersion at long range by optimizing bullet
tip shape to provide excellent overall drag and unrivaled
bullet-to-bullet consistency. Specifically, the meplat must be flat—not
pointed—and the diameter of the flat meplat is a specific ratio to the
bullet diameter. The new technology decreases the drag variation from
shot to shot, resulting in less dispersion at long range...
===
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/hornady-introduces-patented-drag-variability-reduction-technology/

I recall something about nose shape being more efficient on air craft
that were less pointed. Not being an aircraft super fan I didn't pay
much attention. I guess it could be related.

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Leon Fisk
On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 09:29:15 -0700
<snip>

Post by Bob La Londe
I think the primary reason Mach 1 is a choke point is that the
projectile experiences excessive turbulence and reduced stability as it
passes through the sound barrier...

Maybe old news you've already heard...
Hornady did some research on their tips, found that a flat meplat works
better for long range.
===
The approach decreases dispersion at long range by optimizing bullet
tip shape to provide excellent overall drag and unrivaled
bullet-to-bullet consistency. Specifically, the meplat must be flat—not
pointed—and the diameter of the flat meplat is a specific ratio to the
bullet diameter. The new technology decreases the drag variation from
shot to shot, resulting in less dispersion at long range...
===
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/hornady-introduces-patented-drag-variability-reduction-technology/

I recall something about nose shape being more efficient on air craft
that were less pointed. Not being an aircraft super fan I didn't pay
much attention. I guess it could be related.

Bob La Londe

-------------------------------------
This might be related:
https://skill-lync.com/blogs/why-space-shuttles-have-a-blunt-nose-aerodynamics-and-safety-explained

The Shuttle was different in needing high drag to slow down from Mach 25 but
decent subsonic aerodynamics to land. At Mach 3 frictional heating is enough
to rule out aluminum for aircraft skin and melt plastic bullet tips, at Mach
4 a partly jacketed bullet may leave a smoke trail of lead.

The military M855 bullet introduced in 1982 has a small flat meplat.

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Leon Fisk
On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 09:29:15 -0700
<snip>

Post by Bob La Londe
I think the primary reason Mach 1 is a choke point is that the
projectile experiences excessive turbulence and reduced stability as it
passes through the sound barrier...

Maybe old news you've already heard...
Hornady did some research on their tips, found that a flat meplat works
better for long range.
===
The approach decreases dispersion at long range by optimizing bullet
tip shape to provide excellent overall drag and unrivaled
bullet-to-bullet consistency. Specifically, the meplat must be flat—not
pointed—and the diameter of the flat meplat is a specific ratio to the
bullet diameter. The new technology decreases the drag variation from
shot to shot, resulting in less dispersion at long range...
===
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/hornady-introduces-patented-drag-variability-reduction-technology/

You know I bought a couple boxes of Hornady high velocity stuff for 270
and 30-06 recently. I put in for some depredation hunts, and they could
be anywhere. I don't know if I'll be brush busting with a "short" range
fast action lever gun or taking a hillside shot across a valley.
Anyway, I figured I'd get prepared. Now I want to go pull a box off my
ammo shelf and take a look.

Interestingly, and maybe totally unrelated. The most accurate tightest
(bragging rights tight) groups I've gotten in .223 is with the American
Eagle 50gr hollow points. I wonder if that tiny little hollow point
acts like a tiny little flat in practice. I was actually very surprised
at how consistently they shoot given the visible inconsistency of the
tips from one bullet to the next. I was stunned at how good it was,
compared to my first experience with .223. I won't get into that. Just
say the only way I would ever own another Mini 14 is if somebody gave it
to me, and then only for as long as it took for me to sell it or trade
it off.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:vpafle$3gbk9$***@dont-email.me...

What is that? Looks like an animal was run over repeatedly by a D9 Cat.

Oh, its the Elk Jim shot with his brand new Mach 6 Ruger American rifle
shooting 50 caliber 2000 grain pointed soft point boat tails at Mach 6.4.

-----------------------------------
Your description applies to a hunter whose shot failed to stop the elephant.
They are vengeful and leave a greasy red patch.

https://ageofrevolution.org/200-object/antoine-fauveau-cuirass/

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:vpafle$3gbk9$***@dont-email.me...

Oh, its the Elk Jim shot with his brand new Mach 6 Ruger American rifle
shooting 50 caliber 2000 grain pointed soft point boat tails at Mach 6.4.
Bob La Londe
----------------------------------

Latest and greatest?? Me?? More likely with the 45-70 Sharps at Mach 0.9.

There is elk and buffalo hunting here:
https://www.grandlakehunt.com/

I have to consider the limited capacity of my portable freezer.
https://carfridge.alpicool.com/collections/alpicool-t-series-car-fridges/products/alpicool-t60

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Bob La Londe
Oh, its the Elk Jim shot with his brand new Mach 6 Ruger American rifle
shooting 50 caliber 2000 grain pointed soft point boat tails at Mach 6.4.
Bob La Londe
----------------------------------
Latest and greatest??  Me?? More likely with the 45-70 Sharps at Mach 0.9.
https://www.grandlakehunt.com/
I have to consider the limited capacity of my portable freezer.
https://carfridge.alpicool.com/collections/alpicool-t-series-car-
fridges/products/alpicool-t60

Nah, you just have to eat it before spring.

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Jim Wilkins
Latest and greatest?? Me?? More likely with the 45-70 Sharps at Mach 0.9.
https://www.grandlakehunt.com/
I have to consider the limited capacity of my portable freezer.
https://carfridge.alpicool.com/collections/alpicool-t-series-car-
fridges/products/alpicool-t60

Nah, you just have to eat it before spring.
Bob La Londe

---------------------------------
Assuming we get a spring. I'm watching for hairy elephants.

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Bob La Londe

Post by Jim Wilkins

I've heard people say you can dress for cold, but you can't dress
for heat. Well, that's kind true, but...
The thing I never learned to manage was hot and humid.

-------------------------------
I've found soft and flexible warm clothing, mostly at Walmart. I'm
wearing a sweat top that doubles for pajamas for its hood, a quilted
shirt and a pile lined hoodie, plus lined pants. In this I'm
comfortable at 60F napping and 55F moving around a little. My
mother's olde New England side of the family tolerated cold, she'd
leave the thermostat at 60F until my father got up. My sister
doesn't mind it much either. I think we have a little Viking
ancestry from the Norman Conquest.
Despite our northerly latitude NH sometimes gets Gulf of Amexica
heat and humidity, daytime highs pushing 100F and 75+ lows at night,
the dew point. Florida hurricanes often reach us and Hurricane
Katrina passed over us as a rain storm. I can eventually get used to
it, even Atlanta summer climate when visiting my father's family. In
the Air Corps my father was a company commander, my mother's brother
his top sergeant.
I was downtown in Concord NH the day the bank thermometer showed
104F, our record.

Okay, now we are all now officially old.  We're sitting around
talking about the weather.

  Oh Shit , my last post ... you're right !
   OK , got any good loads for a .222 Rem using 50/52/55 gr bullets ?
A wide selection of powders is available .

For varmint I use .223 50gr hollow points to reach out there or .22WMR
out to about 125.  All factory loads.  I really like the 50gr American
Eagle HP.  My target/varmint 223 barrel drops them so close together if
I told you you'd think I was exaggerating.  Not sure you can still get
those American Eagle's, but I have a couple left.
I get a little frustrated with all the different rounds/calibers/loads
out there these days.  There isn't anything in North America you can't
drop with the 119 year old 30-06 (even older if you remember its derived
from 30-03).  Light bullet for deer or antelope way out there, or
heavier bullet for elk or brown bear.  Maybe a bit much for varmint, but
Remington did load a .22 sabot round for it some decades back.  I think
it was called the accelerator.
Mostly I just hunt birds.  Shotgun or pellet gun depending on the species.

So now we just need to add a sub thread about spark plugs and motor oil.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:vp5scj$2grd1$***@dont-email.me...
Okay, now we are all now officially old. We're sitting around talking
about the weather.
Bob La Londe

------------------------------------
And the puttering we indulge in when it allows.

[Snag]

Post by Jim Wilkins

I must be getting old, or more likely rode hard and put up wet one to
many times.  Used to be I wouldn't quit until the job was done, but
not today. I'm the one that's done.

You're lucky you can do anything outdoors. I have plans and incomplete
projects waiting too, but snow > rain > deep freeze have locked
everything outside into a glacier here. I barely cleared the car and
shoveled a path to the road in the brief gap between the rain and
freeze, now it's a struggle even to bring in firewood.
TV weather: "It's like 2 below with the wind chill."
This isn't the best time of the year to import wind from Canada,
please wait for July and August.

I spent a grand total of one winter in cold and snow.  That was enough
for me.  I've heard people say you can dress for cold, but you can't
dress for heat.
Well, that's kind true, but...

snip

See, you got me all wound up again Jim.  I want to get outside and get
more work done before summer.

Predicted low tonight is 4° F and we got a WHOLE 4" OF SNOW last
night ! Mid August we'll probably see highs near a hundred with 90%
humidity .
Spring and fall here are freakin' awesome though .

[Bob La Londe]

Richard kind of got me wound up.  Well, Jim is not totally blameless
either.
I've got a few electric winches, and a couple trailers suitable for
making use of them to haul vehicles and such.  The thing is none of them
are really setup for it.  The little tandem axle flat bed had a receiver
tube welded on the tongue for a draw bar mounted winch, and I added a
similar type contraption to the bigger goose neck trailer.  You might
recall I bragged about my well rounded master of no trades ability
hauling a couple full size 3/4 ton trucks on the goose neck last year.
Well both trailers have been used to haul vehicles and in most cases
they have been loaded with an 8oolb electric winch.  The tractor just
drives right up the ramps on the goose neck, and my scissor lifts would
creep up the ramps on the low trailers after I made arched ramps for them.
I've decided to semi permanently mount the 8000lb winch on the low
trailer. I have more vehicles to move and the trailer will always have
more value with a 4 ton Warn on the front.  I had a cheesy mount on it,
and it worked as I described above, but I decided to add a couple pieces
of C-channel inside the C-channel frame in the front for a nice clean
bolt through mount.  The long term goal is to build a trailer tool box
around it after I have it all figured out, convert the trailer to a 7
pin plug for battery charging, and when I need to use it I can snatch a
couple deep cycles out of one of the boats.  That way everything can be
covered and locked up, and right there when I need to go.  I'll probably
even leave tie straps, chains, farm jack, and a few other things (like
the winch controller) in the box as well.
Well since you guys got me wound up I have spent most of the after noon
taking things apart, salvaging c-channel from a scrapped boat trailer,
cutting, grinding, and measuring just to get "prepared" to weld in one
piece of C-channel about 28 inches long.  The other piece is already there.
As, I have been preparing my debacle I happened to look at the welds on
the piece of C-Channel already there.  Okay.  I'm not sure it qualifies
as a UBS weld other than they haven't broken. Ugly But Strong?  No. Snot
weld that miraculously didn't break would be more accurate.
The nice thing having the now mostly defunct draw bar mount for the
winch is it will make a great template for the bolt holes to mount the
inch.  Well, that and I can cut the front plate out and weld it to
trailer to mount the fair lead.  Not sure where exactly yet.  The front
of the bed frame would be easiest, but In front of the bed might be
better if a little more work.
Well, now I need to wander back outside and mark that piece of channel
for cutting to fit.

I had a nice platform welded inside the frame in the tongue, but I just
wasn't happy with it. It was a little lower than I would like. I
planned to put the fair lead in the front rail of the trailer just above
the bed. The winch would have been a little low. The cable would have
had to go up to go through where I wanted to mount the fair lead. I
just didn't like it. Then I ran across a couple piece of receiver tube
I'd scavenged from something else. I punched some holes in the them,
bolted them to the bottom of the winch, and then welded them to the
platform I'd built for mounting. It puts the cable perfectly in line
with where I want to put the fair lead. The cable will come through
about 2 inches above the bed, just brushing the bottom roller, and
almost perfectly straight when the drum is full. When half empty it
won't even touch the rollers. When its down to the last layer of wrap
(maximum cable out that's safe to pull) it will just touch the top
roller when its straight out.

Pain in the patootie, ain't got the right chit, and it all works out.
Still looking for a battery box. I don't plan to leave a battery on the
trailer, but I do plan to wire it up so when I'm pulling the trailer the
truck will charge the battery just like it does the break away battery
on the goose neck or the fifth wheel. I reckon I'm just going to have
to waste a day making a box. Can't find anything I like.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:vpm1dm$29i0n$***@dont-email.me...
...
Pain in the patootie, ain't got the right chit, and it all works out.
Still looking for a battery box. I don't plan to leave a battery on the
trailer, but I do plan to wire it up so when I'm pulling the trailer the
truck will charge the battery just like it does the break away battery
on the goose neck or the fifth wheel. I reckon I'm just going to have
to waste a day making a box. Can't find anything I like.
Bob La Londe

----------------------------------
A plan that's worked for me is the battery in a Noco (or other) plastic case
with the strap rearranged as a centered handle. The strap tiedown brackets
are bolted or Pop-riveted to the box below lid level so the battery won't
tip. The short cables go to a large Anderson connector rated for the load
current, so I can use the winch on either the truck or the tractor and store
the battery indoors, protected from accidental shorting in the Noco.

https://www.grainger.com/category/fleet-vehicle-maintenance/vehicle-electrical-battery-power-maintenance/vehicle-battery-power-charging/battery-connections/battery-power-connectors?

Mine are mostly salvaged second-hand. The pins remove by depressing the
retaining clip with a flat-blade screwdriver. There's only one insulated
bidirectional type, not exposed male and protected female pins, which suits
them for battery circuits where either side can be hot. The 2 pin ones are
keyed by color for different voltages but the keying is easily milled out.

If the Noco box is left exposed instead of in a locked metal box it needs a
drain hole for rain which comes in through the lid vents. Walmart had Noco
battery boxes at a good price up to Group 24, I had to spend more for Group
31s elsewhere.

LiFePO4 batteries have dropped in price enough to be tempting but they may
not have the current rating for winches or starting engines. Their
protection circuits cut out if overloaded.
jsw

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Bob La Londe
...
Pain in the patootie, ain't got the right chit, and it all works out.
Still looking for a battery box.  I don't plan to leave a battery on the
trailer, but I do plan to wire it up so when I'm pulling the trailer the
truck will charge the battery just like it does the break away battery
on the goose neck or the fifth wheel.  I reckon I'm just going to have
to waste a day making a box.  Can't find anything I like.
Bob La Londe
----------------------------------
A plan that's worked for me is the battery in a Noco (or other) plastic
case with the strap rearranged as a centered handle. The strap tiedown
brackets are bolted or Pop-riveted to the box below lid level so the
battery won't tip. The short cables go to a large Anderson connector
rated for the load current, so I can use the winch on either the truck
or the tractor and store the battery indoors, protected from accidental
shorting in the Noco.
https://www.grainger.com/category/fleet-vehicle-maintenance/vehicle-
electrical-battery-power-maintenance/vehicle-battery-power-charging/
battery-connections/battery-power-connectors?
Mine are mostly salvaged second-hand. The pins remove by depressing the
retaining clip with a flat-blade screwdriver. There's only one insulated
bidirectional type, not exposed male and protected female pins, which
suits them for battery circuits where either side can be hot. The 2 pin
ones are keyed by color for different voltages but the keying is easily
milled out.
If the Noco box is left exposed instead of in a locked metal box it
needs a drain hole for rain which comes in through the lid vents.
Walmart had Noco battery boxes at a good price up to Group 24, I had to
spend more for Group 31s elsewhere.
LiFePO4 batteries have dropped in price enough to be tempting but they
may not have the current rating for winches or starting engines. Their
protection circuits cut out if overloaded.
jsw

At the moment I have 2 old group 29 deep cycles, and 3 fairly new ones.
*Walmart deep cycle batteries. I am thinking about eliminating them for
their current application. 36 & 24 volt trolling motors. I recently
picked up a 36V volt 100ah lithium for that application.

Two of them in parallel (the old ones even) can easily exceed the duty
cycle of the Warn winch. Until last year I didn't even realize winches
had a duty cycle, but the Warn cut out doing an off road recovery and I
had to switch to snatch straps for the **second vehicle. I prefer a low
impact recovery, but shock loading does work. To be fair the winch
probably wouldn't have moved the second wheel in a safe direction anyway.

My thought is with short pulls and reasonable cool downs a single deep
cycle on the trailer with it being charged by the truck should be more
than adequate for most jobs.

Not to long ago I bought some plastic battery boxes from WalMart for a
pair of those group 29s, and I had to use the included spacers to keep
the battery from sliding around in the box. They would have easily held
a group 31 or larger. They were the cheapest battery boxes I found for
a temporary setup. I don't recall if I bought them in store or ordered
them off the WalMart website. I'm thinking I picked them up in store
because I was in a hurry at the time.

As to lithium batteries. I think they are probably best suited to long
term low current applications like RVs, but they do have some that can
push some current. Not enough in my opinion for cranking over anything
more than small utility engines, but I've seen reviews of 12V LiFePo
batteries pushing insane current for a short time before they shut off.

* I've found the Walmart deep cycles have a better life to price ratio
than more expensive batteries. When I fished 2 - 4 tournaments
(sometimes 5 if you count Wednesday afternoon buddy tournaments) a month
a set of group 31 AGM batteries lasted a around 3 years of hard use for.
At a fraction of the price the Walmart group 29 deep cycle batteries
lasted about 18 months and Walmart would replace them for free when they
died. I don't think the warranty is as good as it used to be, but I
have had deep cycle Walmart batteries replaced for free as recently as 2
or 3 years ago. As a side note I use a Walmart brand type F in my John
Deere and it far outlasts the exponentially more expensive John Deere
batteries. Since 2007 the Deere battery died in 2010, and I am on only
my second Walmart battery since. I keep thinking its time for it to die
and the tractor just keeps starting. As a second side note: The older
2 Walmart group 29s are pushing 4 or 5 years now of light intermittent use.

** Somebody attempted to rescue a vehicle gone off the "trail" on the
side of a sand hill down by the river, and got themselves stuck. He had
such a crappy attitude if I didn't need to drag him out of the way to
get to the other guy I would have left him there. I'm going to miss
that old white Chevy.
https://www.yumabassman.com/2024/06/02/bods-off-road-recovery-sorry-no-t-shirt/

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:vpni5m$2l4al$***@dont-email.me...

* I've found the Walmart deep cycles have a better life to price ratio
than more expensive batteries.

-------------------------------

Thanks. The Duracell / East Penn marine batteries I used to depend on for

10 year life don't last half that now.

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Bob La Londe
* I've found the Walmart deep cycles have a better life to price ratio
than more expensive batteries.
-------------------------------
Thanks. The Duracell / East Penn marine batteries I used to depend on
for >10 year life don't last half that now.

I'm not saying the WalMart batteries are better. I just believe they
cost less per service hour.

[Clare Snyder]

Post by Bob La Londe

Post by Bob La Londe
* I've found the Walmart deep cycles have a better life to price ratio
than more expensive batteries.
-------------------------------
Thanks. The Duracell / East Penn marine batteries I used to depend on
for >10 year life don't last half that now.

I'm not saying the WalMart batteries are better. I just believe they
cost less per service hour.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

The Crown GC2H 115AH 6 volt golf cart batteries I used in the modified
Fiat "ElectraMobile" did pretty good until some ***@ck@$$ disconnected
the maintainer over a VERY COLD winter and they froze to death. Dor
heavy use I like 2 bib sixes in series rather than 2 twelves
paralleled.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Clare Snyder" wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...

The Crown GC2H 115AH 6 volt golf cart batteries I used in the modified
Fiat "ElectraMobile" did pretty good until some ***@ck@$$ disconnected
the maintainer over a VERY COLD winter and they froze to death. Dor
heavy use I like 2 bib sixes in series rather than 2 twelves
paralleled.

--------------------------

I've seen several off-gridders recommend 6V instead of 12V, though none
explained why. Price and availability sent me to 12V.

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Clare Snyder
The Crown GC2H 115AH 6 volt golf cart batteries I used in the modified
the maintainer over a VERY COLD winter and they froze to death. Dor
heavy use I like 2 bib sixes in series rather than 2 twelves
paralleled.
--------------------------
I've seen several off-gridders recommend 6V instead of 12V, though none
explained why. Price and availability sent me to 12V.

There used to be a huge aftermarket in reduced capacity used 6V
batteries. Good AH per dollar spent for the penny pinchers. New ones
were crazy expensive though. My electric scissors lifts both used 4
large 6V deep cycles. The second time I replaced a set I said screw
this, and dropped a pair of 12V deep cycles in their place. I had about
half the run time, but 1/4 the price. If I needed more run time I could
have just tied in another bank in parallel and still been half the cost
of 4 big sixes.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:vpo921$2oviq$***@dont-email.me...

There used to be a huge aftermarket in reduced capacity used 6V
batteries. Good AH per dollar spent for the penny pinchers. New ones
were crazy expensive though. My electric scissors lifts both used 4
large 6V deep cycles. The second time I replaced a set I said screw
this, and dropped a pair of 12V deep cycles in their place. I had about
half the run time, but 1/4 the price. If I needed more run time I could
have just tied in another bank in parallel and still been half the cost
of 4 big sixes.
Bob La Londe
-------------------------------------
The large UPS aftermarket I sometimes score in seems to be all 12V. My APCs
take 24V so I need relatively matched pairs for them. These help measure and
monitor their condition:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09P661829/ref=twister_B09697FNMS?_encoding=UTF8&th=1

You have to guess and set the Ah capacity when fully charged, it measures
the actual Ah capacity with a full discharge. On recharge when it reaches
the set capacity it stops counting, which is appropriate for a lead-acid on
float or trickle that still accepts (and wastes) a small current when fully
charged. Watt-hours isn't too useful because wire IR drop affects the
voltage.

Bestek sells nice, fairly inexpensive true sine inverters in 300W and 500W.
https://www.amazon.com/BESTEK-300Watt-Power-Inverter-Adapter/dp/B07KQ4Q2L5/ref=asc_df_B07KQ4Q2L5?

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Bob La Londe
There used to be a huge aftermarket in reduced capacity used 6V
batteries. Good AH per dollar spent for the penny pinchers.  New ones
were crazy expensive though.  My electric scissors lifts both used 4
large 6V deep cycles.  The second time I replaced a set I said screw
this, and dropped a pair of 12V deep cycles in their place.  I had about
half the run time, but 1/4 the price.  If I needed more run time I could
have just tied in another bank in parallel and still been half the cost
of 4 big sixes.
Bob La Londe
-------------------------------------
The large UPS aftermarket I sometimes score in seems to be all 12V. My
APCs take 24V so I need relatively matched pairs for them. These help
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09P661829/ref=twister_B09697FNMS?
_encoding=UTF8&th=1
You have to guess and set the Ah capacity when fully charged, it
measures the actual Ah capacity with a full discharge. On recharge when
it reaches the set capacity it stops counting, which is appropriate for
a lead-acid on float or trickle that still accepts (and wastes) a small
current when fully charged. Watt-hours isn't too useful because wire IR
drop affects the voltage.
Bestek sells nice, fairly inexpensive true sine inverters in 300W and 500W.
https://www.amazon.com/BESTEK-300Watt-Power-Inverter-Adapter/dp/
B07KQ4Q2L5/ref=asc_df_B07KQ4Q2L5?

In my past life as a contractor I fixed UPS units all the time. They
all had 12V 7AH gel cells. There might have been a few big units with
10AH batteries, but 99% of them used the same old 12V 7AH gel battery.
Since I used 12V 7AH batteries in every burglar alarm, fire alarm, and
cellular or radio back up communicator I usually had two cases on the
shelf. Never less than one case and if I got down to one I already had
more on the way.

Generally my goal with those batteries (whatever the application) was to
have to do nothing with my feet up on my desk and receive the service
contract checks in the mail. I bought the best batteries I could find.
I'm sure all the prices have changed, but my cost back in the day for an
inexpensive 12/7 was around $7-9 and the cost for what I decided
anecdotally was the best was about $15. If I could go 3-5 years (unless
contracted other wise) instead of 1-3 I was money ahead to use the
better batteries. I installed thousands of 12/7 batteries, and probably
hundreds of 12/4s where 12/7s wouldn't fit.

It used to be Yuasa made the best batteries, but they went through some
shakeups and name change and might not be exactly the same company
anymore. The last time I bought some they held up, so they may still be
the best 12/7 gel battery available.

I need to order some again soon. One of my access control expansion
modules is sending me a low battery signal.

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Bob La Londe
There used to be a huge aftermarket in reduced capacity used 6V
batteries. Good AH per dollar spent for the penny pinchers.  New ones
were crazy expensive though.  My electric scissors lifts both used 4
large 6V deep cycles.  The second time I replaced a set I said screw
this, and dropped a pair of 12V deep cycles in their place.  I had about
half the run time, but 1/4 the price.  If I needed more run time I could
have just tied in another bank in parallel and still been half the cost
of 4 big sixes.
Bob La Londe
-------------------------------------
The large UPS aftermarket I sometimes score in seems to be all 12V. My
APCs take 24V so I need relatively matched pairs for them. These help
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09P661829/ref=twister_B09697FNMS?
_encoding=UTF8&th=1
You have to guess and set the Ah capacity when fully charged, it
measures the actual Ah capacity with a full discharge. On recharge
when it reaches the set capacity it stops counting, which is
appropriate for a lead-acid on float or trickle that still accepts
(and wastes) a small current when fully charged. Watt-hours isn't too
useful because wire IR drop affects the voltage.
Bestek sells nice, fairly inexpensive true sine inverters in 300W and 500W.
https://www.amazon.com/BESTEK-300Watt-Power-Inverter-Adapter/dp/
B07KQ4Q2L5/ref=asc_df_B07KQ4Q2L5?

In my past life as a contractor I fixed UPS units all the time.  They
all had 12V 7AH gel cells.  There might have been a few big units with
10AH batteries, but 99% of them used the same old 12V 7AH gel battery.
Since I used 12V 7AH batteries in every burglar alarm, fire alarm, and
cellular or radio back up communicator I usually had two cases on the
shelf.  Never less than one case and if I got down to one I already had
more on the way.
Generally my goal with those batteries (whatever the application) was to
have to do nothing with my feet up on my desk and receive the service
contract checks in the mail.  I bought the best batteries I could find.
I'm sure all the prices have changed, but my cost back in the day for an
inexpensive 12/7 was around $7-9 and the cost for what I decided
anecdotally was the best was about $15.  If I could go 3-5 years (unless
contracted other wise) instead of 1-3 I was money ahead to use the
better batteries. I installed thousands of 12/7 batteries, and probably
hundreds of 12/4s where 12/7s wouldn't fit.
It used to be Yuasa made the best batteries, but they went through some
shakeups and name change and might not be exactly the same company
anymore.  The last time I bought some they held up, so they may still be
the best 12/7 gel battery available.
I need to order some again soon.  One of my access control expansion
modules is sending me a low battery signal.

The absolute worst gel batteries and worst customer service was from
Interstate, although most of that might have been the local dealer.

[Snag]

Post by Bob La Londe
There used to be a huge aftermarket in reduced capacity used 6V
batteries. Good AH per dollar spent for the penny pinchers.  New ones
were crazy expensive though.  My electric scissors lifts both used 4
large 6V deep cycles.  The second time I replaced a set I said screw
this, and dropped a pair of 12V deep cycles in their place.  I had about
half the run time, but 1/4 the price.  If I needed more run time I could
have just tied in another bank in parallel and still been half the cost
of 4 big sixes.
Bob La Londe
-------------------------------------
The large UPS aftermarket I sometimes score in seems to be all 12V. My
APCs take 24V so I need relatively matched pairs for them. These help
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09P661829/ref=twister_B09697FNMS?
_encoding=UTF8&th=1
You have to guess and set the Ah capacity when fully charged, it
measures the actual Ah capacity with a full discharge. On recharge
when it reaches the set capacity it stops counting, which is
appropriate for a lead-acid on float or trickle that still accepts
(and wastes) a small current when fully charged. Watt-hours isn't too
useful because wire IR drop affects the voltage.
Bestek sells nice, fairly inexpensive true sine inverters in 300W and 500W.
https://www.amazon.com/BESTEK-300Watt-Power-Inverter-Adapter/dp/
B07KQ4Q2L5/ref=asc_df_B07KQ4Q2L5?

In my past life as a contractor I fixed UPS units all the time.  They
all had 12V 7AH gel cells.  There might have been a few big units with
10AH batteries, but 99% of them used the same old 12V 7AH gel battery.
Since I used 12V 7AH batteries in every burglar alarm, fire alarm, and
cellular or radio back up communicator I usually had two cases on the
shelf.  Never less than one case and if I got down to one I already had
more on the way.
Generally my goal with those batteries (whatever the application) was to
have to do nothing with my feet up on my desk and receive the service
contract checks in the mail.  I bought the best batteries I could find.
I'm sure all the prices have changed, but my cost back in the day for an
inexpensive 12/7 was around $7-9 and the cost for what I decided
anecdotally was the best was about $15.  If I could go 3-5 years (unless
contracted other wise) instead of 1-3 I was money ahead to use the
better batteries. I installed thousands of 12/7 batteries, and probably
hundreds of 12/4s where 12/7s wouldn't fit.
It used to be Yuasa made the best batteries, but they went through some
shakeups and name change and might not be exactly the same company
anymore.  The last time I bought some they held up, so they may still be
the best 12/7 gel battery available.
I need to order some again soon.  One of my access control expansion
modules is sending me a low battery signal.

When the battery in my free UPS went TU I had a 12/9 battery I had
bought online intended for use with my electric pivoting jib crane (for
firewood handling) that I decided was not sufficient for it's intended
purpose . But with a slight terminal modification it slipped right into
that UPS like it was made for it . I still hate that beep , but it does
tell me when the power goes out .

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Bob La Londe
There used to be a huge aftermarket in reduced capacity used 6V
batteries. Good AH per dollar spent for the penny pinchers.  New ones
were crazy expensive though.  My electric scissors lifts both used 4
large 6V deep cycles.  The second time I replaced a set I said screw
this, and dropped a pair of 12V deep cycles in their place.  I had about
half the run time, but 1/4 the price.  If I needed more run time I could
have just tied in another bank in parallel and still been half the cost
of 4 big sixes.
Bob La Londe
-------------------------------------
The large UPS aftermarket I sometimes score in seems to be all 12V.
My APCs take 24V so I need relatively matched pairs for them. These
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09P661829/ref=twister_B09697FNMS?
_encoding=UTF8&th=1
You have to guess and set the Ah capacity when fully charged, it
measures the actual Ah capacity with a full discharge. On recharge
when it reaches the set capacity it stops counting, which is
appropriate for a lead-acid on float or trickle that still accepts
(and wastes) a small current when fully charged. Watt-hours isn't too
useful because wire IR drop affects the voltage.
Bestek sells nice, fairly inexpensive true sine inverters in 300W and 500W.
https://www.amazon.com/BESTEK-300Watt-Power-Inverter-Adapter/dp/
B07KQ4Q2L5/ref=asc_df_B07KQ4Q2L5?

In my past life as a contractor I fixed UPS units all the time.  They
all had 12V 7AH gel cells.  There might have been a few big units with
10AH batteries, but 99% of them used the same old 12V 7AH gel battery.
Since I used 12V 7AH batteries in every burglar alarm, fire alarm, and
cellular or radio back up communicator I usually had two cases on the
shelf.  Never less than one case and if I got down to one I already
had more on the way.
Generally my goal with those batteries (whatever the application) was
to have to do nothing with my feet up on my desk and receive the
service contract checks in the mail.  I bought the best batteries I
could find. I'm sure all the prices have changed, but my cost back in
the day for an inexpensive 12/7 was around $7-9 and the cost for what
I decided anecdotally was the best was about $15.  If I could go 3-5
years (unless contracted other wise) instead of 1-3 I was money ahead
to use the better batteries. I installed thousands of 12/7 batteries,
and probably hundreds of 12/4s where 12/7s wouldn't fit.
It used to be Yuasa made the best batteries, but they went through
some shakeups and name change and might not be exactly the same
company anymore.  The last time I bought some they held up, so they
may still be the best 12/7 gel battery available.
I need to order some again soon.  One of my access control expansion
modules is sending me a low battery signal.

  When the battery in my free UPS went TU I had a 12/9 battery I had
bought online intended for use with my electric pivoting jib crane (for
firewood handling) that I decided was not sufficient for it's intended
purpose . But with a slight terminal modification it slipped right into
that UPS like it was made for it . I still hate that beep , but it does
tell me when the power goes out .

Is it by any chance the same physical size as the 12/7 gel batteries? I
found a lot of companies marketing their batteries as higher AH, but
were the same physical size. In practice the Yuasa batteries cost more
and lasted longer.

[Snag]

Post by Bob La Londe
There used to be a huge aftermarket in reduced capacity used 6V
batteries. Good AH per dollar spent for the penny pinchers.  New ones
were crazy expensive though.  My electric scissors lifts both used 4
large 6V deep cycles.  The second time I replaced a set I said screw
this, and dropped a pair of 12V deep cycles in their place.  I had about
half the run time, but 1/4 the price.  If I needed more run time I could
have just tied in another bank in parallel and still been half the cost
of 4 big sixes.
Bob La Londe
-------------------------------------
The large UPS aftermarket I sometimes score in seems to be all 12V.
My APCs take 24V so I need relatively matched pairs for them. These
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09P661829/ref=twister_B09697FNMS?
_encoding=UTF8&th=1
You have to guess and set the Ah capacity when fully charged, it
measures the actual Ah capacity with a full discharge. On recharge
when it reaches the set capacity it stops counting, which is
appropriate for a lead-acid on float or trickle that still accepts
(and wastes) a small current when fully charged. Watt-hours isn't
too useful because wire IR drop affects the voltage.
Bestek sells nice, fairly inexpensive true sine inverters in 300W and 500W.
https://www.amazon.com/BESTEK-300Watt-Power-Inverter-Adapter/dp/
B07KQ4Q2L5/ref=asc_df_B07KQ4Q2L5?

In my past life as a contractor I fixed UPS units all the time.  They
all had 12V 7AH gel cells.  There might have been a few big units
with 10AH batteries, but 99% of them used the same old 12V 7AH gel
battery. Since I used 12V 7AH batteries in every burglar alarm, fire
alarm, and cellular or radio back up communicator I usually had two
cases on the shelf.  Never less than one case and if I got down to
one I already had more on the way.
Generally my goal with those batteries (whatever the application) was
to have to do nothing with my feet up on my desk and receive the
service contract checks in the mail.  I bought the best batteries I
could find. I'm sure all the prices have changed, but my cost back in
the day for an inexpensive 12/7 was around $7-9 and the cost for what
I decided anecdotally was the best was about $15.  If I could go 3-5
years (unless contracted other wise) instead of 1-3 I was money ahead
to use the better batteries. I installed thousands of 12/7 batteries,
and probably hundreds of 12/4s where 12/7s wouldn't fit.
It used to be Yuasa made the best batteries, but they went through
some shakeups and name change and might not be exactly the same
company anymore.  The last time I bought some they held up, so they
may still be the best 12/7 gel battery available.
I need to order some again soon.  One of my access control expansion
modules is sending me a low battery signal.

   When the battery in my free UPS went TU I had a 12/9 battery I had
bought online intended for use with my electric pivoting jib crane
(for firewood handling) that I decided was not sufficient for it's
intended purpose . But with a slight terminal modification it slipped
right into that UPS like it was made for it . I still hate that beep ,
but it does tell me when the power goes out .

Is it by any chance the same physical size as the 12/7 gel batteries?  I
found a lot of companies marketing their batteries as higher AH, but
were the same physical size.  In practice the Yuasa batteries cost more
and lasted longer.

Yup , exactly the same size . The only things plugged into that UPS
are my desktop comp and the modem/router/telephone base unit . When it
starts beeping I shut down the comp and printer , leave the comm
equipment on so I can track the outage on my laptop and get updates .

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:vpq4jb$36ef9$***@dont-email.me...

In my past life as a contractor I fixed UPS units all the time. They
all had 12V 7AH gel cells. There might have been a few big units with
10AH batteries, but 99% of them used the same old 12V 7AH gel battery.

----------------------------------------

I lucked onto two APC1400s at flea markets, one free-to-fix, the other $20.
They have true sine outputs with enough surge capacity to start my compact
refrigerator, so they are its power outage backup. They are older beige ones
that haven't been disabled with timers for off-grid (mis)use. I'm told they
can run continuously at 750W. The fridge draws less than 100W running. The
internal batteries are two 12V, 18As and the battery disconnect plug on the
rear is an Anderson SB50 that can be rewired from series to parallel for
external deep cycle input.

Their disadvantages are fairly high idle draw comparable to the fridge,
typical of sine inverters, and no easy way to command them On from
battery-powered Standby with an external load sensing circuit. That command
is missing from the otherwise pretty complete remote control set, though
it's available manually.
jsw