Destructive Lock Nuts Suck

[Bob La Londe]

I recently had to install new axles on a trailer in order to get working
brakes on the trailer... Don't lecture me about how you could have done
this or that and not replaced them. They were oddballs and I wasted a
couple weeks looking for other solutions.

The u-bolts that came with the new axles came with the destructive style
lock nuts. I don't mind to much. I hoped to never have to deal with this
again on this trailer anyway. On my second run to go pick up a truck and
haul it halfway across the state over some mountains and some modestly
substantial grades and weave through the Salt River Canyon two nuts came
off.

When the nuts came off I don't know, but when I went over a bump the
axle popped off the springs and the tire slammed into the tire behind. I
had just hit 65 mph and it suddenly felt wrong. I was running empty and
all of a sudden it felt like I was running with a load. I glanced at the
mirror and smoke was pouring off those tires so bad I thought a hub was
on fire. Fortunately, there was on old stock yard just ahead with a lot
of flat ground out front where I was able to safely pull out somewhere
west of Coolidge. The axle coming loose turned out to be an easy fix.
Since I was still running empty I just jacked the side of the trailer
up, rolled the axle back in place, and ratchet strapped it tight. Then I
whipped out my cell phone and entered NEAREST HARDWARE STORE into the
search window.

The U-bolt that had fallen off was just barely hanging onto the axle
still by the extra friction of the threads. The other U-bolt was still
attached to the cross plate by the nuts. At least I wasn't wondering
where in small town Arizona I was going to find U-bolts.

There was a Tractor Supply store in Coolidge that had TWO (2) (just two)
9/16 fine nuts. They were in the wrong bin, but I found them. With that,
a couple fresh lock washers, and copious amounts of red high strength
Permatex thread locker I crawled under the trailer in the parking lot to
fix it.

Coming back I stopped and checked the trailer and my load at every brake
check lane and pullout. With a 3/4 ton Dodge w/ Cummins on the back I
made it back through the mountains and across the Salt River Canyon
almost with out incident. Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of
Globe/Miami I glanced in the mirror to see one of the hooks for a front
strap laying on the trailer deck. The strap broke where it went over the
frame.  Fortunately I had left the winch cable tight or I might have
lost the truck.

I'm too old for this sort of adventure. I prepared for everything I
could think of. Brought tools, and materials for emergencies, and did
everything I could think of to prevent problems before setting out.

Yes, the nuts were torqued down properly both times. LOL.

Yeah, I know... there are plenty among you who can tell me everything
they think I did wrong, but at the end I made it home. Now I have to get
that truck back off the trailer.

[David Billington]

Post by Bob La Londe
I recently had to install new axles on a trailer in order to get
working brakes on the trailer... Don't lecture me about how you could
have done this or that and not replaced them. They were oddballs and I
wasted a couple weeks looking for other solutions.
The u-bolts that came with the new axles came with the destructive
style lock nuts. I don't mind to much. I hoped to never have to deal
with this again on this trailer anyway. On my second run to go pick up
a truck and haul it halfway across the state over some mountains and
some modestly substantial grades and weave through the Salt River
Canyon two nuts came off.
When the nuts came off I don't know, but when I went over a bump the
axle popped off the springs and the tire slammed into the tire behind.
I had just hit 65 mph and it suddenly felt wrong. I was running empty
and all of a sudden it felt like I was running with a load. I glanced
at the mirror and smoke was pouring off those tires so bad I thought a
hub was on fire. Fortunately, there was on old stock yard just ahead
with a lot of flat ground out front where I was able to safely pull
out somewhere west of Coolidge. The axle coming loose turned out to be
an easy fix. Since I was still running empty I just jacked the side of
the trailer up, rolled the axle back in place, and ratchet strapped it
tight. Then I whipped out my cell phone and entered NEAREST HARDWARE
STORE into the search window.
The U-bolt that had fallen off was just barely hanging onto the axle
still by the extra friction of the threads. The other U-bolt was still
attached to the cross plate by the nuts. At least I wasn't wondering
where in small town Arizona I was going to find U-bolts.
There was a Tractor Supply store in Coolidge that had TWO (2) (just
two) 9/16 fine nuts. They were in the wrong bin, but I found them.
With that, a couple fresh lock washers, and copious amounts of red
high strength Permatex thread locker I crawled under the trailer in
the parking lot to fix it.
Coming back I stopped and checked the trailer and my load at every
brake check lane and pullout. With a 3/4 ton Dodge w/ Cummins on the
back I made it back through the mountains and across the Salt River
Canyon almost with out incident. Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of
Globe/Miami I glanced in the mirror to see one of the hooks for a
front strap laying on the trailer deck. The strap broke where it went
over the frame.  Fortunately I had left the winch cable tight or I
might have lost the truck.
I'm too old for this sort of adventure. I prepared for everything I
could think of. Brought tools, and materials for emergencies, and did
everything I could think of to prevent problems before setting out.
Yes, the nuts were torqued down properly both times. LOL.
Yeah, I know... there are plenty among you who can tell me everything
they think I did wrong, but at the end I made it home. Now I have to
get that truck back off the trailer.

Good to hear no serious damage or injury. What do you mean by a
destructive locknut, It's not something I've heard of before. I wonder
if it was poor quality hardware. I was reading recently about a guy that
was rebuilding the diff and final drive in his car and decided to use
new bolts for the CW fixing but they failed when tightened before he
reach the correct torque, apparently made in Asia, he re-used the
original ones in the end and no problems.

[Bob La Londe]

Post by David Billington

Post by Bob La Londe
I recently had to install new axles on a trailer in order to get
working brakes on the trailer... Don't lecture me about how you could
have done this or that and not replaced them. They were oddballs and I
wasted a couple weeks looking for other solutions.
The u-bolts that came with the new axles came with the destructive
style lock nuts. I don't mind to much. I hoped to never have to deal
with this again on this trailer anyway. On my second run to go pick up
a truck and haul it halfway across the state over some mountains and
some modestly substantial grades and weave through the Salt River
Canyon two nuts came off.
When the nuts came off I don't know, but when I went over a bump the
axle popped off the springs and the tire slammed into the tire behind.
I had just hit 65 mph and it suddenly felt wrong. I was running empty
and all of a sudden it felt like I was running with a load. I glanced
at the mirror and smoke was pouring off those tires so bad I thought a
hub was on fire. Fortunately, there was on old stock yard just ahead
with a lot of flat ground out front where I was able to safely pull
out somewhere west of Coolidge. The axle coming loose turned out to be
an easy fix. Since I was still running empty I just jacked the side of
the trailer up, rolled the axle back in place, and ratchet strapped it
tight. Then I whipped out my cell phone and entered NEAREST HARDWARE
STORE into the search window.
The U-bolt that had fallen off was just barely hanging onto the axle
still by the extra friction of the threads. The other U-bolt was still
attached to the cross plate by the nuts. At least I wasn't wondering
where in small town Arizona I was going to find U-bolts.
There was a Tractor Supply store in Coolidge that had TWO (2) (just
two) 9/16 fine nuts. They were in the wrong bin, but I found them.
With that, a couple fresh lock washers, and copious amounts of red
high strength Permatex thread locker I crawled under the trailer in
the parking lot to fix it.
Coming back I stopped and checked the trailer and my load at every
brake check lane and pullout. With a 3/4 ton Dodge w/ Cummins on the
back I made it back through the mountains and across the Salt River
Canyon almost with out incident. Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of
Globe/Miami I glanced in the mirror to see one of the hooks for a
front strap laying on the trailer deck. The strap broke where it went
over the frame.  Fortunately I had left the winch cable tight or I
might have lost the truck.
I'm too old for this sort of adventure. I prepared for everything I
could think of. Brought tools, and materials for emergencies, and did
everything I could think of to prevent problems before setting out.
Yes, the nuts were torqued down properly both times. LOL.
Yeah, I know... there are plenty among you who can tell me everything
they think I did wrong, but at the end I made it home. Now I have to
get that truck back off the trailer.

Good to hear no serious damage or injury. What do you mean by a
destructive locknut, It's not something I've heard of before. I wonder
if it was poor quality hardware. I was reading recently about a guy that
was rebuilding the diff and final drive in his car and decided to use
new bolts for the CW fixing but they failed when tightened before he
reach the correct torque, apparently made in Asia, he re-used the
original ones in the end and no problems.

I know you guys have to know what I am talking about. There is a type
of lock nut that is dimpled or punched that partially mangles the
threads when installed to lock it in place. These have square punch
marks on the flat.

[David Billington]

Post by David Billington

Post by Bob La Londe
I recently had to install new axles on a trailer in order to get
working brakes on the trailer... Don't lecture me about how you
could have done this or that and not replaced them. They were
oddballs and I wasted a couple weeks looking for other solutions.
The u-bolts that came with the new axles came with the destructive
style lock nuts. I don't mind to much. I hoped to never have to deal
with this again on this trailer anyway. On my second run to go pick
up a truck and haul it halfway across the state over some mountains
and some modestly substantial grades and weave through the Salt
River Canyon two nuts came off.
When the nuts came off I don't know, but when I went over a bump the
axle popped off the springs and the tire slammed into the tire
behind. I had just hit 65 mph and it suddenly felt wrong. I was
running empty and all of a sudden it felt like I was running with a
load. I glanced at the mirror and smoke was pouring off those tires
so bad I thought a hub was on fire. Fortunately, there was on old
stock yard just ahead with a lot of flat ground out front where I
was able to safely pull out somewhere west of Coolidge. The axle
coming loose turned out to be an easy fix. Since I was still running
empty I just jacked the side of the trailer up, rolled the axle back
in place, and ratchet strapped it tight. Then I whipped out my cell
phone and entered NEAREST HARDWARE STORE into the search window.
The U-bolt that had fallen off was just barely hanging onto the axle
still by the extra friction of the threads. The other U-bolt was
still attached to the cross plate by the nuts. At least I wasn't
wondering where in small town Arizona I was going to find U-bolts.
There was a Tractor Supply store in Coolidge that had TWO (2) (just
two) 9/16 fine nuts. They were in the wrong bin, but I found them.
With that, a couple fresh lock washers, and copious amounts of red
high strength Permatex thread locker I crawled under the trailer in
the parking lot to fix it.
Coming back I stopped and checked the trailer and my load at every
brake check lane and pullout. With a 3/4 ton Dodge w/ Cummins on the
back I made it back through the mountains and across the Salt River
Canyon almost with out incident. Somewhere on a long flat Southwest
of Globe/Miami I glanced in the mirror to see one of the hooks for a
front strap laying on the trailer deck. The strap broke where it
went over the frame.  Fortunately I had left the winch cable tight
or I might have lost the truck.
I'm too old for this sort of adventure. I prepared for everything I
could think of. Brought tools, and materials for emergencies, and
did everything I could think of to prevent problems before setting out.
Yes, the nuts were torqued down properly both times. LOL.
Yeah, I know... there are plenty among you who can tell me
everything they think I did wrong, but at the end I made it home.
Now I have to get that truck back off the trailer.

Good to hear no serious damage or injury. What do you mean by a
destructive locknut, It's not something I've heard of before. I
wonder if it was poor quality hardware. I was reading recently about
a guy that was rebuilding the diff and final drive in his car and
decided to use new bolts for the CW fixing but they failed when
tightened before he reach the correct torque, apparently made in
Asia, he re-used the original ones in the end and no problems.

I know you guys have to know what I am talking about.  There is a type
of lock nut that is dimpled or punched that partially mangles the
threads when installed to lock it in place.  These have square punch
marks on the flat.

Is this the type of nut
https://www.fastenright.com/general-fixings/philidas-mkv-nut/sl14 , one
of many designs of all metal lock nuts. I actually have quite a few of
those in M5 and M6 for certain applications.

[Snag]

Post by David Billington

Post by Bob La Londe
I recently had to install new axles on a trailer in order to get
working brakes on the trailer... Don't lecture me about how you could
have done this or that and not replaced them. They were oddballs and
I wasted a couple weeks looking for other solutions.
The u-bolts that came with the new axles came with the destructive
style lock nuts. I don't mind to much. I hoped to never have to deal
with this again on this trailer anyway. On my second run to go pick
up a truck and haul it halfway across the state over some mountains
and some modestly substantial grades and weave through the Salt River
Canyon two nuts came off.
When the nuts came off I don't know, but when I went over a bump the
axle popped off the springs and the tire slammed into the tire
behind. I had just hit 65 mph and it suddenly felt wrong. I was
running empty and all of a sudden it felt like I was running with a
load. I glanced at the mirror and smoke was pouring off those tires
so bad I thought a hub was on fire. Fortunately, there was on old
stock yard just ahead with a lot of flat ground out front where I was
able to safely pull out somewhere west of Coolidge. The axle coming
loose turned out to be an easy fix. Since I was still running empty I
just jacked the side of the trailer up, rolled the axle back in
place, and ratchet strapped it tight. Then I whipped out my cell
phone and entered NEAREST HARDWARE STORE into the search window.
The U-bolt that had fallen off was just barely hanging onto the axle
still by the extra friction of the threads. The other U-bolt was
still attached to the cross plate by the nuts. At least I wasn't
wondering where in small town Arizona I was going to find U-bolts.
There was a Tractor Supply store in Coolidge that had TWO (2) (just
two) 9/16 fine nuts. They were in the wrong bin, but I found them.
With that, a couple fresh lock washers, and copious amounts of red
high strength Permatex thread locker I crawled under the trailer in
the parking lot to fix it.
Coming back I stopped and checked the trailer and my load at every
brake check lane and pullout. With a 3/4 ton Dodge w/ Cummins on the
back I made it back through the mountains and across the Salt River
Canyon almost with out incident. Somewhere on a long flat Southwest
of Globe/Miami I glanced in the mirror to see one of the hooks for a
front strap laying on the trailer deck. The strap broke where it went
over the frame.  Fortunately I had left the winch cable tight or I
might have lost the truck.
I'm too old for this sort of adventure. I prepared for everything I
could think of. Brought tools, and materials for emergencies, and did
everything I could think of to prevent problems before setting out.
Yes, the nuts were torqued down properly both times. LOL.
Yeah, I know... there are plenty among you who can tell me everything
they think I did wrong, but at the end I made it home. Now I have to
get that truck back off the trailer.

Good to hear no serious damage or injury. What do you mean by a
destructive locknut, It's not something I've heard of before. I wonder
if it was poor quality hardware. I was reading recently about a guy
that was rebuilding the diff and final drive in his car and decided to
use new bolts for the CW fixing but they failed when tightened before
he reach the correct torque, apparently made in Asia, he re-used the
original ones in the end and no problems.

I know you guys have to know what I am talking about.  There is a type
of lock nut that is dimpled or punched that partially mangles the
threads when installed to lock it in place.  These have square punch
marks on the flat.

I know exactly what you're talking about and I hate them . Lock
washers and LocTite work better and don't mangle the bolts . Like the
bolts that hold the bed on my '86 GMC pickup . With almost 40 years of
rust and road crud . I'd like you to meet my angle grinder ... because
the last 4 are too close to the gas tank for the Blue Wrench .

[Joe Gwinn]

Post by Bob La Londe

Post by David Billington

Post by Bob La Londe
I recently had to install new axles on a trailer in order to get
working brakes on the trailer... Don't lecture me about how you could
have done this or that and not replaced them. They were oddballs and I
wasted a couple weeks looking for other solutions.
The u-bolts that came with the new axles came with the destructive
style lock nuts. I don't mind to much. I hoped to never have to deal
with this again on this trailer anyway. On my second run to go pick up
a truck and haul it halfway across the state over some mountains and
some modestly substantial grades and weave through the Salt River
Canyon two nuts came off.
When the nuts came off I don't know, but when I went over a bump the
axle popped off the springs and the tire slammed into the tire behind.
I had just hit 65 mph and it suddenly felt wrong. I was running empty
and all of a sudden it felt like I was running with a load. I glanced
at the mirror and smoke was pouring off those tires so bad I thought a
hub was on fire. Fortunately, there was on old stock yard just ahead
with a lot of flat ground out front where I was able to safely pull
out somewhere west of Coolidge. The axle coming loose turned out to be
an easy fix. Since I was still running empty I just jacked the side of
the trailer up, rolled the axle back in place, and ratchet strapped it
tight. Then I whipped out my cell phone and entered NEAREST HARDWARE
STORE into the search window.
The U-bolt that had fallen off was just barely hanging onto the axle
still by the extra friction of the threads. The other U-bolt was still
attached to the cross plate by the nuts. At least I wasn't wondering
where in small town Arizona I was going to find U-bolts.
There was a Tractor Supply store in Coolidge that had TWO (2) (just
two) 9/16 fine nuts. They were in the wrong bin, but I found them.
With that, a couple fresh lock washers, and copious amounts of red
high strength Permatex thread locker I crawled under the trailer in
the parking lot to fix it.
Coming back I stopped and checked the trailer and my load at every
brake check lane and pullout. With a 3/4 ton Dodge w/ Cummins on the
back I made it back through the mountains and across the Salt River
Canyon almost with out incident. Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of
Globe/Miami I glanced in the mirror to see one of the hooks for a
front strap laying on the trailer deck. The strap broke where it went
over the frame.  Fortunately I had left the winch cable tight or I
might have lost the truck.
I'm too old for this sort of adventure. I prepared for everything I
could think of. Brought tools, and materials for emergencies, and did
everything I could think of to prevent problems before setting out.
Yes, the nuts were torqued down properly both times. LOL.
Yeah, I know... there are plenty among you who can tell me everything
they think I did wrong, but at the end I made it home. Now I have to
get that truck back off the trailer.

Good to hear no serious damage or injury. What do you mean by a
destructive locknut, It's not something I've heard of before. I wonder
if it was poor quality hardware. I was reading recently about a guy that
was rebuilding the diff and final drive in his car and decided to use
new bolts for the CW fixing but they failed when tightened before he
reach the correct torque, apparently made in Asia, he re-used the
original ones in the end and no problems.

I know you guys have to know what I am talking about. There is a type
of lock nut that is dimpled or punched that partially mangles the
threads when installed to lock it in place. These have square punch
marks on the flat.

You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
Nut:

.<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>

Joe Gwinn

[Snag]

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Bob La Londe

Post by David Billington

Post by Bob La Londe
I recently had to install new axles on a trailer in order to get
working brakes on the trailer... Don't lecture me about how you could
have done this or that and not replaced them. They were oddballs and I
wasted a couple weeks looking for other solutions.
The u-bolts that came with the new axles came with the destructive
style lock nuts. I don't mind to much. I hoped to never have to deal
with this again on this trailer anyway. On my second run to go pick up
a truck and haul it halfway across the state over some mountains and
some modestly substantial grades and weave through the Salt River
Canyon two nuts came off.
When the nuts came off I don't know, but when I went over a bump the
axle popped off the springs and the tire slammed into the tire behind.
I had just hit 65 mph and it suddenly felt wrong. I was running empty
and all of a sudden it felt like I was running with a load. I glanced
at the mirror and smoke was pouring off those tires so bad I thought a
hub was on fire. Fortunately, there was on old stock yard just ahead
with a lot of flat ground out front where I was able to safely pull
out somewhere west of Coolidge. The axle coming loose turned out to be
an easy fix. Since I was still running empty I just jacked the side of
the trailer up, rolled the axle back in place, and ratchet strapped it
tight. Then I whipped out my cell phone and entered NEAREST HARDWARE
STORE into the search window.
The U-bolt that had fallen off was just barely hanging onto the axle
still by the extra friction of the threads. The other U-bolt was still
attached to the cross plate by the nuts. At least I wasn't wondering
where in small town Arizona I was going to find U-bolts.
There was a Tractor Supply store in Coolidge that had TWO (2) (just
two) 9/16 fine nuts. They were in the wrong bin, but I found them.
With that, a couple fresh lock washers, and copious amounts of red
high strength Permatex thread locker I crawled under the trailer in
the parking lot to fix it.
Coming back I stopped and checked the trailer and my load at every
brake check lane and pullout. With a 3/4 ton Dodge w/ Cummins on the
back I made it back through the mountains and across the Salt River
Canyon almost with out incident. Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of
Globe/Miami I glanced in the mirror to see one of the hooks for a
front strap laying on the trailer deck. The strap broke where it went
over the frame.  Fortunately I had left the winch cable tight or I
might have lost the truck.
I'm too old for this sort of adventure. I prepared for everything I
could think of. Brought tools, and materials for emergencies, and did
everything I could think of to prevent problems before setting out.
Yes, the nuts were torqued down properly both times. LOL.
Yeah, I know... there are plenty among you who can tell me everything
they think I did wrong, but at the end I made it home. Now I have to
get that truck back off the trailer.

Good to hear no serious damage or injury. What do you mean by a
destructive locknut, It's not something I've heard of before. I wonder
if it was poor quality hardware. I was reading recently about a guy that
was rebuilding the diff and final drive in his car and decided to use
new bolts for the CW fixing but they failed when tightened before he
reach the correct torque, apparently made in Asia, he re-used the
original ones in the end and no problems.

I know you guys have to know what I am talking about. There is a type
of lock nut that is dimpled or punched that partially mangles the
threads when installed to lock it in place. These have square punch
marks on the flat.

You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
.<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>
Joe Gwinn

Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ...

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Joe Gwinn
You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
.<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>
Joe Gwinn

Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ...
Snag

------------------------------------
I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
lathe or drilled for safety wire.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:uvdsg5$307pj$***@dont-email.me...

I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
lathe or drilled for safety wire.
----------------------------
https://www.boltscience.com/pages/twonuts.htm
"The performance of the two-nut method, when properly applied, provides a
superior locking capability when compared to many so-called lock nuts."

However the thin jam nut may require a thinner wrench, if you have one.

[Joe Gwinn]

On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Post by Snag

Post by Joe Gwinn
You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
.<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>
Joe Gwinn

Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ...
Snag
------------------------------------
I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
lathe or drilled for safety wire.

The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.

Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against
one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
NASA study.

Joe Gwinn

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Post by Snag

Post by Joe Gwinn
You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
.<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>
Joe Gwinn

Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ...
Snag
------------------------------------
I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
lathe or drilled for safety wire.

The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.
Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against
one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
NASA study.
Joe Gwinn

Well, I didn't actually say that. Just that two of the nuts came off
for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers
with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it
made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up
through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show
Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the
reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep
inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency
runaway pullouts.

This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The
cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I
bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before
I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with
regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can
tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have
stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two
of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily
into place (which surprised me).

These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were
just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could
find.

I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used
Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results
over the years.

I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its
necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would
be useful.

[Joe Gwinn]

Post by Bob La Londe

Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Post by Snag

Post by Joe Gwinn
You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
.<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>
Joe Gwinn

Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ...
Snag
------------------------------------
I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
lathe or drilled for safety wire.

The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.
Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against
one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
NASA study.
Joe Gwinn

Well, I didn't actually say that.

True, not those words, but this:

"Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the
mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer
deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had
left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."

Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and
maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise,
destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range
rolling truck tires are bad enough. Bloodcurdling.

This would have terrified me for sure.

Post by Bob La Londe
.... Just that two of the nuts came off
for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers
with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it
made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up
through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show
Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the
reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep
inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency
runaway pullouts.
This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The
cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I
bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before
I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with
regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can
tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have
stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two
of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily
into place (which surprised me).
These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were
just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could
find.
I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used
Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results
over the years.
I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its
necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would
be useful.

I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake
Nuts are insignificant.


By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.

And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and
did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with
jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped). Drake
Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would
shake loose. But this was before Loctite; this ought to work. The
distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.

Joe

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Bob La Londe

Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Post by Snag

Post by Joe Gwinn
You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
.<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>
Joe Gwinn

Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ...
Snag
------------------------------------
I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
lathe or drilled for safety wire.

The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.
Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against
one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
NASA study.
Joe Gwinn

Well, I didn't actually say that.

"Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the
mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer
deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had
left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."
Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and
maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise,
destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range
rolling truck tires are bad enough. Bloodcurdling.
This would have terrified me for sure.

Post by Bob La Londe
.... Just that two of the nuts came off
for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers
with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it
made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up
through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show
Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the
reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep
inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency
runaway pullouts.
This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The
cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I
bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before
I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with
regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can
tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have
stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two
of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily
into place (which surprised me).
These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were
just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could
find.
I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used
Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results
over the years.
I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its
necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would
be useful.

I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake
Nuts are insignificant.
By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.
And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and
did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with
jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped). Drake
Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would
shake loose. But this was before Loctite; this ought to work. The
distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.
Joe

I must add a correction. Pair of 6K (3 ton) axles. Not 6 ton. Net
load with the payload of the truck (tongue weight on the goose neck
hitch) is probably around 14K, but I only licensed the trailer for 10K.

Before rolling out of Show Low I told somebody who stopped to check if I
was alright, "I am just double checking my load. I don't want the truck
to come loose, fall down the side of the mountain, and take me with it."

In the grades I stopped at every brake check and a few other places to
do a walk around feeling the hubs, tires, and the tension on each strap.
I did leave the winch cable in place on purpose with the intent it was
a safety backup if not necessarily a great one. I will do tie downs a
little differently in the future as well. I ran a single strap on the
front, which is strong enough, but when it parted except for the winch
cable there was nothing keeping the truck from rolling back except a
rather meager bit of friction from the parking brake. I guess the
parking brake was a second safety in case the strap broke, and the winch
clutch slipped. The truck had not moved. The straps in the back were
still tight. When I resecured it I used two straps in the front like I
probably should have to begin with. I've hauled equipment before using
chains and its pretty common to cross secure with a single chain in the
front and a single chain in the rear if it gos across more than one
point on the piece of equipment. I had hauling chains and binders with
me also, but there wasn't really a good place to route them and be sure
of getting good tension with the chain binders. The straps slid over
the frame in the small clearance that was available just fine.

I might also buy a new set of straps. Some of these have been around
since I hauled my Hurco mill back from Hemet California in 2010.
Actually I have some new straps, but they are the type with flat plate
hooks intended for securing loads straight across. They would not have
held properly for this type of load. I had lots of stuff with me for
the haul.

On my first haul (another similar size truck) I had a wheel hub get hot
enough to be painful to the touch on the run out running empty. I reset
the castle nut tension and pumped some more grease into the easy grease
zirc. It was fine, but I put my hand on it every time I got out of the
truck just to be sure.

This was my second haul on these axles.

I've used this trailer on the old axles to haul my tractor and a few
other things before.

[Clare Snyder]

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Bob La Londe

Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Post by Snag

Post by Joe Gwinn
You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
.<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>
Joe Gwinn

Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ...
Snag
------------------------------------
I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
lathe or drilled for safety wire.

The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.
Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against
one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
NASA study.
Joe Gwinn

Well, I didn't actually say that.

"Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the
mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer
deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had
left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."
Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and
maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise,
destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range
rolling truck tires are bad enough. Bloodcurdling.
This would have terrified me for sure.

Post by Bob La Londe
.... Just that two of the nuts came off
for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers
with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it
made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up
through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show
Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the
reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep
inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency
runaway pullouts.
This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The
cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I
bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before
I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with
regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can
tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have
stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two
of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily
into place (which surprised me).
These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were
just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could
find.
I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used
Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results
over the years.
I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its
necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would
be useful.

I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake
Nuts are insignificant.
By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.
And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and
did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with
jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped). Drake
Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would
shake loose. But this was before Loctite; this ought to work. The
distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.
Joe

For suspension bolts I like flanged locknuts. NEVER split lock
washers!!. A serated nut with attached serated washer (LoxNut) is the
cat's ass. WhizLock nuts are a close second - particularly when
installed with medium lock-tite.

Fijilok nuts work very well on adjustable threaded linkage - better
than NyLok
Flanged side distortion or top distortion nuts work well too -
particularly with medium lock-tite.

If you MUST use lock washers, Nord-Lock or Disk-Lock. Either one
requires 50% more torque to remove than the install torque (torque
stud to 100 lb/ft and it takes 150 to break it loose)

[Joe Gwinn]

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Bob La Londe

Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Post by Snag

Post by Joe Gwinn
You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
.<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>
Joe Gwinn

Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ...
Snag
------------------------------------
I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
lathe or drilled for safety wire.

The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.
Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against
one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
NASA study.
Joe Gwinn

Well, I didn't actually say that.

"Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the
mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer
deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had
left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."
Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and
maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise,
destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range
rolling truck tires are bad enough. Bloodcurdling.
This would have terrified me for sure.

Post by Bob La Londe
.... Just that two of the nuts came off
for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers
with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it
made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up
through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show
Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the
reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep
inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency
runaway pullouts.
This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The
cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I
bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before
I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with
regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can
tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have
stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two
of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily
into place (which surprised me).
These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were
just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could
find.
I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used
Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results
over the years.
I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its
necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would
be useful.

I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake
Nuts are insignificant.
By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.
And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and
did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with
jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped). Drake
Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would
shake loose. But this was before Loctite; this ought to work. The
distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.
Joe

For suspension bolts I like flanged locknuts. NEVER split lock
washers!!.

Agree - they are useless, as are the star lock washers.

Post by Clare Snyder
A serated nut with attached serated washer (LoxNut) is the
cat's ass. WhizLock nuts are a close second - particularly when
installed with medium lock-tite.

Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

WhizNut did work, and it's only for cases where the thing being
clamped is a good bit softer than the nut.
<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/whiz-nuts/>

Post by Clare Snyder
Fijilok nuts work very well on adjustable threaded linkage - better
than NyLok

Fijilok not found, buried under irrelevant stuff.

Post by Clare Snyder
Flanged side distortion or top distortion nuts work well too -
particularly with medium lock-tite.

Do distorted nuts with loctite work better than plain nuts with
loctite?

Post by Clare Snyder
If you MUST use lock washers, Nord-Lock or Disk-Lock. Either one
requires 50% more torque to remove than the install torque (torque
stud to 100 lb/ft and it takes 150 to break it loose)

Nord-Lock is very good. <https://www.nord-lock.com/en-us/>

I had to look Disk-Lock up. <https://www.sherex.com/>

It is the Nord-Lock system (whose patents must have expired by now),
cloned and maybe improved. I would assume that it is also very good.

But I do think that while expensive, Drake Nuts are a whole lot
better. But this is the right conversation to be having.

War story. A family member was towing a boat trailer, but had not
attached the safety chains properly. If that trailer came loose,
someone was going to die. Whereupon I put my foot down and made him
use beefy threaded quick links.

<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/quick-links/>

So, I'd also consider adding some safety chains.


Joe Gwinn

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Bob La Londe

Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Post by Snag

Post by Joe Gwinn
You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
.<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>
Joe Gwinn

Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ...
Snag
------------------------------------
I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
lathe or drilled for safety wire.

The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.
Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against
one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
NASA study.
Joe Gwinn

Well, I didn't actually say that.

"Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the
mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer
deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had
left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."
Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and
maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise,
destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range
rolling truck tires are bad enough. Bloodcurdling.
This would have terrified me for sure.

Post by Bob La Londe
.... Just that two of the nuts came off
for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers
with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it
made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up
through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show
Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the
reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep
inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency
runaway pullouts.
This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The
cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I
bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before
I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with
regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can
tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have
stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two
of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily
into place (which surprised me).
These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were
just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could
find.
I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used
Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results
over the years.
I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its
necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would
be useful.

I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake
Nuts are insignificant.
By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.
And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and
did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with
jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped). Drake
Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would
shake loose. But this was before Loctite; this ought to work. The
distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.
Joe

For suspension bolts I like flanged locknuts. NEVER split lock
washers!!.

Agree - they are useless, as are the star lock washers.

Post by Clare Snyder
A serated nut with attached serated washer (LoxNut) is the
cat's ass. WhizLock nuts are a close second - particularly when
installed with medium lock-tite.

Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?
WhizNut did work, and it's only for cases where the thing being
clamped is a good bit softer than the nut.
<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/whiz-nuts/>

Post by Clare Snyder
Fijilok nuts work very well on adjustable threaded linkage - better
than NyLok

Fijilok not found, buried under irrelevant stuff.

Post by Clare Snyder
Flanged side distortion or top distortion nuts work well too -
particularly with medium lock-tite.

Do distorted nuts with loctite work better than plain nuts with
loctite?

Post by Clare Snyder
If you MUST use lock washers, Nord-Lock or Disk-Lock. Either one
requires 50% more torque to remove than the install torque (torque
stud to 100 lb/ft and it takes 150 to break it loose)

Nord-Lock is very good. <https://www.nord-lock.com/en-us/>
I had to look Disk-Lock up. <https://www.sherex.com/>
It is the Nord-Lock system (whose patents must have expired by now),
cloned and maybe improved. I would assume that it is also very good.
But I do think that while expensive, Drake Nuts are a whole lot
better. But this is the right conversation to be having.
War story. A family member was towing a boat trailer, but had not
attached the safety chains properly. If that trailer came loose,
someone was going to die. Whereupon I put my foot down and made him
use beefy threaded quick links.
<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/quick-links/>
So, I'd also consider adding some safety chains.
Joe Gwinn

Goose neck and straight pull trailers are required (DOT) to have safety
chains. This one has 3/8 chains and screw couplers. The chains are kind
of a pain and in the way in the bed of a truck on a goose neck. They
can even knock loose the electrical plug from the receptacle if one is
not careful. Interestingly a fifth wheel does not require safety
chains. More interestingly a clear definition of fifth wheel varies or
is unclear depending on where it is looked up. Even in legislative
definitions. Many are written in a manner that could include goose neck
hitches. Where it becomes even less clear as to what is and is not a
"fifth wheel" is when looking up the legality of towing RV doubles from
state to state.

[Jim Wilkins]

...

Can you get more of the nuts that failed, to test or as evidence?

[Clare Snyder]

Post by Bob La Londe

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Bob La Londe

Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Post by Snag

Post by Joe Gwinn
You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
.<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>
Joe Gwinn

Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ...
Snag
------------------------------------
I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
lathe or drilled for safety wire.

The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.
Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against
one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
NASA study.
Joe Gwinn

Well, I didn't actually say that.

"Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the
mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer
deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had
left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."
Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and
maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise,
destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range
rolling truck tires are bad enough. Bloodcurdling.
This would have terrified me for sure.

Post by Bob La Londe
.... Just that two of the nuts came off
for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers
with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it
made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up
through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show
Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the
reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep
inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency
runaway pullouts.
This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The
cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I
bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before
I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with
regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can
tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have
stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two
of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily
into place (which surprised me).
These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were
just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could
find.
I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used
Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results
over the years.
I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its
necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would
be useful.

I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake
Nuts are insignificant.
By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.
And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and
did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with
jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped). Drake
Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would
shake loose. But this was before Loctite; this ought to work. The
distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.
Joe

For suspension bolts I like flanged locknuts. NEVER split lock
washers!!.

Agree - they are useless, as are the star lock washers.

Post by Clare Snyder
A serated nut with attached serated washer (LoxNut) is the
cat's ass. WhizLock nuts are a close second - particularly when
installed with medium lock-tite.

Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?
WhizNut did work, and it's only for cases where the thing being
clamped is a good bit softer than the nut.
<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/whiz-nuts/>

Post by Clare Snyder
Fijilok nuts work very well on adjustable threaded linkage - better
than NyLok

Fijilok not found, buried under irrelevant stuff.

Post by Clare Snyder
Flanged side distortion or top distortion nuts work well too -
particularly with medium lock-tite.

Do distorted nuts with loctite work better than plain nuts with
loctite?

Post by Clare Snyder
If you MUST use lock washers, Nord-Lock or Disk-Lock. Either one
requires 50% more torque to remove than the install torque (torque
stud to 100 lb/ft and it takes 150 to break it loose)

Nord-Lock is very good. <https://www.nord-lock.com/en-us/>
I had to look Disk-Lock up. <https://www.sherex.com/>
It is the Nord-Lock system (whose patents must have expired by now),
cloned and maybe improved. I would assume that it is also very good.
But I do think that while expensive, Drake Nuts are a whole lot
better. But this is the right conversation to be having.
War story. A family member was towing a boat trailer, but had not
attached the safety chains properly. If that trailer came loose,
someone was going to die. Whereupon I put my foot down and made him
use beefy threaded quick links.
<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/quick-links/>
So, I'd also consider adding some safety chains.
Joe Gwinn

Goose neck and straight pull trailers are required (DOT) to have safety
chains. This one has 3/8 chains and screw couplers. The chains are kind
of a pain and in the way in the bed of a truck on a goose neck. They
can even knock loose the electrical plug from the receptacle if one is
not careful. Interestingly a fifth wheel does not require safety
chains. More interestingly a clear definition of fifth wheel varies or
is unclear depending on where it is looked up. Even in legislative
definitions. Many are written in a manner that could include goose neck
hitches. Where it becomes even less clear as to what is and is not a
"fifth wheel" is when looking up the legality of towing RV doubles from
state to state.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

Isn't the difference the attatchment? Gooseneck uses a ball. (or
possibly a pintle) while a "fifth wheel" uses a pin and latch on a
"horseshoe plate"

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Bob La Londe

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Bob La Londe

Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Post by Snag

Post by Joe Gwinn
You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
.<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>
Joe Gwinn

Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ...
Snag
------------------------------------
I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
lathe or drilled for safety wire.

The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.
Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against
one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
NASA study.
Joe Gwinn

Well, I didn't actually say that.

"Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the
mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer
deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had
left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."
Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and
maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise,
destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range
rolling truck tires are bad enough. Bloodcurdling.
This would have terrified me for sure.

Post by Bob La Londe
.... Just that two of the nuts came off
for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers
with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it
made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up
through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show
Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the
reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep
inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency
runaway pullouts.
This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The
cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I
bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before
I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with
regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can
tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have
stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two
of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily
into place (which surprised me).
These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were
just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could
find.
I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used
Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results
over the years.
I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its
necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would
be useful.

I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake
Nuts are insignificant.
By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.
And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and
did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with
jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped). Drake
Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would
shake loose. But this was before Loctite; this ought to work. The
distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.
Joe

For suspension bolts I like flanged locknuts. NEVER split lock
washers!!.

Agree - they are useless, as are the star lock washers.

Post by Clare Snyder
A serated nut with attached serated washer (LoxNut) is the
cat's ass. WhizLock nuts are a close second - particularly when
installed with medium lock-tite.

Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?
WhizNut did work, and it's only for cases where the thing being
clamped is a good bit softer than the nut.
<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/whiz-nuts/>

Post by Clare Snyder
Fijilok nuts work very well on adjustable threaded linkage - better
than NyLok

Fijilok not found, buried under irrelevant stuff.

Post by Clare Snyder
Flanged side distortion or top distortion nuts work well too -
particularly with medium lock-tite.

Do distorted nuts with loctite work better than plain nuts with
loctite?

Post by Clare Snyder
If you MUST use lock washers, Nord-Lock or Disk-Lock. Either one
requires 50% more torque to remove than the install torque (torque
stud to 100 lb/ft and it takes 150 to break it loose)

Nord-Lock is very good. <https://www.nord-lock.com/en-us/>
I had to look Disk-Lock up. <https://www.sherex.com/>
It is the Nord-Lock system (whose patents must have expired by now),
cloned and maybe improved. I would assume that it is also very good.
But I do think that while expensive, Drake Nuts are a whole lot
better. But this is the right conversation to be having.
War story. A family member was towing a boat trailer, but had not
attached the safety chains properly. If that trailer came loose,
someone was going to die. Whereupon I put my foot down and made him
use beefy threaded quick links.
<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/quick-links/>
So, I'd also consider adding some safety chains.
Joe Gwinn

Goose neck and straight pull trailers are required (DOT) to have safety
chains. This one has 3/8 chains and screw couplers. The chains are kind
of a pain and in the way in the bed of a truck on a goose neck. They
can even knock loose the electrical plug from the receptacle if one is
not careful. Interestingly a fifth wheel does not require safety
chains. More interestingly a clear definition of fifth wheel varies or
is unclear depending on where it is looked up. Even in legislative
definitions. Many are written in a manner that could include goose neck
hitches. Where it becomes even less clear as to what is and is not a
"fifth wheel" is when looking up the legality of towing RV doubles from
state to state.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

Isn't the difference the attatchment? Gooseneck uses a ball. (or
possibly a pintle) while a "fifth wheel" uses a pin and latch on a
"horseshoe plate"

That is the practical definition and perhaps the "dictionary"
definition, but in the real world you have to deal with the legal
definition. Remember the law says a tomato is a vegetable even though
taxonomically its a fruit,

[Leon Fisk]

On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
Joe Gwinn <***@comcast.net> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Joe Gwinn
Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

Found this tidbit:

An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.

[Joe Gwinn]

Post by Leon Fisk
On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
<snip>

Post by Joe Gwinn
Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.

Found it: Page 74 of the following:
.<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
.<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8>

No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is
squished into contact with the bolt thread.

I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.

.<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>

Joe Gwinn

[Leon Fisk]

On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 15:29:01 -0400
Joe Gwinn <***@comcast.net> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Joe Gwinn
I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.
.<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>

That is an interesting design.

IMO the biggest problem these items are trying to solve is for any
worker keeping a nut from coming loose.

Though I worked with guys who would keep that success rate very low😬

[Clare Snyder]

Post by Leon Fisk
On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 15:29:01 -0400
<snip>

Post by Joe Gwinn
I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.
.<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>

That is an interesting design.
IMO the biggest problem these items are trying to solve is for any
worker keeping a nut from coming loose.
Though I worked with guys who would keep that success rate very low?

I worked with one guy who's method was tighten until it breaks and
back it off 1/8th of a turn. He could snap a 1 1/2 inch grade 8 bolt.
(with a torque multiplier and johnson bar, but still!!!) The torque
spec was something like 3600 ft lb so he had to be putting over 4000
ft lb to them - - - - -

[Clare Snyder]

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Leon Fisk
On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
<snip>

Post by Joe Gwinn
Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.

.<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
.<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8>
No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is
squished into contact with the bolt thread.
I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.
.<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>
Joe Gwinn

Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut
if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to
be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to
your ankles- head first!!!
Their Key-Lock thread inserts work pretty good - never had one come
out with the bolt/stud unlike HeliCoil.

[Joe Gwinn]

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Leon Fisk
On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
<snip>

Post by Joe Gwinn
Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.

.<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
.<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8>
No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is
squished into contact with the bolt thread.
I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.
.<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>
Joe Gwinn

Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut
if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to
be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to
your ankles- head first!!!

Good point, although the nuts are pretty cheap, so one can afford to
just replace them. The U-straps may also need to be replaced?

Post by Clare Snyder
Their Key-Lock thread inserts work pretty good - never had one come
out with the bolt/stud unlike HeliCoil.

And you don't need to replace the thread insert after one use?

Joe Gwinn

[David Billington]

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Leon Fisk
On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
<snip>

Post by Joe Gwinn
Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.

.<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
.<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8>
No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is
squished into contact with the bolt thread.
I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.
.<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>
Joe Gwinn

Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut
if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to
be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to
your ankles- head first!!!

Good point, although the nuts are pretty cheap, so one can afford to
just replace them. The U-straps may also need to be replaced?

I looked at the page and it reminded me of the Dardelet thread shown in
Machinery's Handbook, the 21st edition at least which I have. I often
wonder if Ford used that or similar on the crossflow rocker arm
adjusters as the threads were self locking, no locknut.

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder
Their Key-Lock thread inserts work pretty good - never had one come
out with the bolt/stud unlike HeliCoil.

And you don't need to replace the thread insert after one use?
Joe Gwinn

[Joe Gwinn]

Post by David Billington

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Leon Fisk
On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
<snip>

Post by Joe Gwinn
Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.

.<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
.<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8>
No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is
squished into contact with the bolt thread.
I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.
.<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>
Joe Gwinn

Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut
if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to
be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to
your ankles- head first!!!

Good point, although the nuts are pretty cheap, so one can afford to
just replace them. The U-straps may also need to be replaced?

I looked at the page and it reminded me of the Dardelet thread shown in
Machinery's Handbook, the 21st edition at least which I have. I often
wonder if Ford used that or similar on the crossflow rocker arm
adjusters as the threads were self locking, no locknut.

I had not heard of the Dardelet thread, but it is the same idea as
Spiralock. Not made any more, it seems.

Dardelet's US patents are US 2,091,788 and US 1,657,244.


I ran into yet another locknut contender:

Security Locknut, which originated in the railroad industry a century
ago, for use on such things are the assemblies that get the full
steel-on-steel impact loads. In this case, "security" means against
vibration, not thievery. There is just one supplier, but they are not
terribly expensive.

.<https://www.securitylocknut.com/>

The relevant patents are US 1,166,203 and US 1,400,154.

.<https://www.securitylocknut.com/post/how-does-the-security-locknut-work>

Joe Gwinn

[Clare Snyder]

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by David Billington

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Leon Fisk
On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
<snip>

Post by Joe Gwinn
Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.

.<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
.<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8>
No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is
squished into contact with the bolt thread.
I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.
.<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>
Joe Gwinn

Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut
if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to
be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to
your ankles- head first!!!

Good point, although the nuts are pretty cheap, so one can afford to
just replace them. The U-straps may also need to be replaced?

I looked at the page and it reminded me of the Dardelet thread shown in
Machinery's Handbook, the 21st edition at least which I have. I often
wonder if Ford used that or similar on the crossflow rocker arm
adjusters as the threads were self locking, no locknut.

I had not heard of the Dardelet thread, but it is the same idea as
Spiralock. Not made any more, it seems.
Dardelet's US patents are US 2,091,788 and US 1,657,244.
Security Locknut, which originated in the railroad industry a century
ago, for use on such things are the assemblies that get the full
steel-on-steel impact loads. In this case, "security" means against
vibration, not thievery. There is just one supplier, but they are not
terribly expensive.
.<https://www.securitylocknut.com/>
The relevant patents are US 1,166,203 and US 1,400,154.
.<https://www.securitylocknut.com/post/how-does-the-security-locknut-work>
Joe Gwinn

Looks like a similar action as the FujiLok

[Joe Gwinn]

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by David Billington

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Leon Fisk
On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
<snip>

Post by Joe Gwinn
Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.

.<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
.<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8>
No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is
squished into contact with the bolt thread.
I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.
.<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>
Joe Gwinn

Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut
if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to
be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to
your ankles- head first!!!

Good point, although the nuts are pretty cheap, so one can afford to
just replace them. The U-straps may also need to be replaced?

I looked at the page and it reminded me of the Dardelet thread shown in
Machinery's Handbook, the 21st edition at least which I have. I often
wonder if Ford used that or similar on the crossflow rocker arm
adjusters as the threads were self locking, no locknut.

I had not heard of the Dardelet thread, but it is the same idea as
Spiralock. Not made any more, it seems.
Dardelet's US patents are US 2,091,788 and US 1,657,244.
Security Locknut, which originated in the railroad industry a century
ago, for use on such things are the assemblies that get the full
steel-on-steel impact loads. In this case, "security" means against
vibration, not thievery. There is just one supplier, but they are not
terribly expensive.
.<https://www.securitylocknut.com/>
The relevant patents are US 1,166,203 and US 1,400,154.
.<https://www.securitylocknut.com/post/how-does-the-security-locknut-work>

By the way, McMaster carries these.
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/nuts/locking-type~steel-insert/>

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn
Joe Gwinn

Looks like a similar action as the FujiLok

Do you have any more information or URLs for FujiLok? Google didn't
help because I didn't know enough to pull this out of the irrelevant
hits.

Joe Gwinn

[Joe Gwinn]

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by David Billington

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Leon Fisk
On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
<snip>

Post by Joe Gwinn
Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.

.<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
.<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8>
No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is
squished into contact with the bolt thread.
I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.
.<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>
Joe Gwinn

Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut
if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to
be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to
your ankles- head first!!!

Good point, although the nuts are pretty cheap, so one can afford to
just replace them. The U-straps may also need to be replaced?

I looked at the page and it reminded me of the Dardelet thread shown in
Machinery's Handbook, the 21st edition at least which I have. I often
wonder if Ford used that or similar on the crossflow rocker arm
adjusters as the threads were self locking, no locknut.

I had not heard of the Dardelet thread, but it is the same idea as
Spiralock. Not made any more, it seems.
Dardelet's US patents are US 2,091,788 and US 1,657,244.
Security Locknut, which originated in the railroad industry a century
ago, for use on such things are the assemblies that get the full
steel-on-steel impact loads. In this case, "security" means against
vibration, not thievery. There is just one supplier, but they are not
terribly expensive.
.<https://www.securitylocknut.com/>
The relevant patents are US 1,166,203 and US 1,400,154.
.<https://www.securitylocknut.com/post/how-does-the-security-locknut-work>

By the way, McMaster carries these.
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/nuts/locking-type~steel-insert/>

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn
Joe Gwinn

Looks like a similar action as the FujiLok

Do you have any more information or URLs for FujiLok? Google didn't
help because I didn't know enough to pull this out of the irrelevant
hits.

I think I found them. The company is "Fuji Seimitsu Manufacturing Co
Ltd ".

.<https://www.fun.co.jp/en/u-town/company/history/>

The locknut is basically the same as the Security Locknut steel
insert. There is a US patent that I have not yet found, so there must
be some difference.

Joe Gwinn

[Joe Gwinn]

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by David Billington

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Leon Fisk
On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
<snip>

Post by Joe Gwinn
Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.

.<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
.<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8>
No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is
squished into contact with the bolt thread.
I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.
.<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>
Joe Gwinn

Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut
if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to
be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to
your ankles- head first!!!

Good point, although the nuts are pretty cheap, so one can afford to
just replace them. The U-straps may also need to be replaced?

I looked at the page and it reminded me of the Dardelet thread shown in
Machinery's Handbook, the 21st edition at least which I have. I often
wonder if Ford used that or similar on the crossflow rocker arm
adjusters as the threads were self locking, no locknut.

I had not heard of the Dardelet thread, but it is the same idea as
Spiralock. Not made any more, it seems.
Dardelet's US patents are US 2,091,788 and US 1,657,244.
Security Locknut, which originated in the railroad industry a century
ago, for use on such things are the assemblies that get the full
steel-on-steel impact loads. In this case, "security" means against
vibration, not thievery. There is just one supplier, but they are not
terribly expensive.
.<https://www.securitylocknut.com/>
The relevant patents are US 1,166,203 and US 1,400,154.
.<https://www.securitylocknut.com/post/how-does-the-security-locknut-work>

By the way, McMaster carries these.
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/nuts/locking-type~steel-insert/>

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn
Joe Gwinn

Looks like a similar action as the FujiLok

Do you have any more information or URLs for FujiLok? Google didn't
help because I didn't know enough to pull this out of the irrelevant
hits.

I think I found them. The company is "Fuji Seimitsu Manufacturing Co
Ltd ".
.<https://www.fun.co.jp/en/u-town/company/history/>
The locknut is basically the same as the Security Locknut steel
insert. There is a US patent that I have not yet found, so there must
be some difference.

Not so fast. I did find an earlier Chinese patent from FujiLok that
had a diagram that resembled the Security Locknut, but that is not
what's currently offered:

.<https://www.fun.co.jp/en/u-town/products/u-nut/>

Somewhere in the middle of the sales talk there is a section that
shows how it's built and works. But no Junker test data.

Joe Gwinn

[Clare Snyder]

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by David Billington

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Leon Fisk
On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
<snip>

Post by Joe Gwinn
Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.

.<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
.<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8>
No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is
squished into contact with the bolt thread.
I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.
.<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>
Joe Gwinn

Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut
if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to
be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to
your ankles- head first!!!

Good point, although the nuts are pretty cheap, so one can afford to
just replace them. The U-straps may also need to be replaced?

I looked at the page and it reminded me of the Dardelet thread shown in
Machinery's Handbook, the 21st edition at least which I have. I often
wonder if Ford used that or similar on the crossflow rocker arm
adjusters as the threads were self locking, no locknut.

I had not heard of the Dardelet thread, but it is the same idea as
Spiralock. Not made any more, it seems.
Dardelet's US patents are US 2,091,788 and US 1,657,244.
Security Locknut, which originated in the railroad industry a century
ago, for use on such things are the assemblies that get the full
steel-on-steel impact loads. In this case, "security" means against
vibration, not thievery. There is just one supplier, but they are not
terribly expensive.
.<https://www.securitylocknut.com/>
The relevant patents are US 1,166,203 and US 1,400,154.
.<https://www.securitylocknut.com/post/how-does-the-security-locknut-work>

By the way, McMaster carries these.
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/nuts/locking-type~steel-insert/>

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn
Joe Gwinn

Looks like a similar action as the FujiLok

Do you have any more information or URLs for FujiLok? Google didn't
help because I didn't know enough to pull this out of the irrelevant
hits.
Joe Gwinn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=fdxipd-UXiE
Just google what is a fuji lock nut or how does a fuji lock nut work
https://fujiseimitsu.co.id/products/u-nut/detail.php

[Clare Snyder]

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Leon Fisk
On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
<snip>

Post by Joe Gwinn
Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.

.<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
.<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8>
No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is
squished into contact with the bolt thread.
I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.
.<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>
Joe Gwinn

Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut
if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to
be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to
your ankles- head first!!!

Good point, although the nuts are pretty cheap, so one can afford to
just replace them. The U-straps may also need to be replaced?

Post by Clare Snyder
Their Key-Lock thread inserts work pretty good - never had one come
out with the bolt/stud unlike HeliCoil.

And you don't need to replace the thread insert after one use?
Joe Gwinn

They have a bit of give to them - which might help - but generally
you don't count on a thread insert to be a lock-nut - although they
are advertized and sold as .

[Joe Gwinn]

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Leon Fisk
On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
<snip>

Post by Joe Gwinn
Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.

.<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
.<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8>
No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is
squished into contact with the bolt thread.
I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.
.<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>
Joe Gwinn

Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut
if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to
be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to
your ankles- head first!!!

Good point, although the nuts are pretty cheap, so one can afford to
just replace them. The U-straps may also need to be replaced?

Post by Clare Snyder
Their Key-Lock thread inserts work pretty good - never had one come
out with the bolt/stud unlike HeliCoil.

And you don't need to replace the thread insert after one use?
Joe Gwinn

They have a bit of give to them - which might help - but generally
you don't count on a thread insert to be a lock-nut - although they
are advertized and sold as such.

In their defense, they prove Key-Lock's vibration resistance with a
Junker test, which is the gold standard. And NASA will accept no
less.

Joe Gwinn

[Clare Snyder]

Post by Leon Fisk
On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
<snip>

Post by Joe Gwinn
Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.

Different animal.
The LoxNut has a captive free spinning serrated lock washer/flange
similar to a NordLock washer, with the bottom of the nut serrated
similar to the top half of a NordLock.
The Disc-Lock lockwasher has ramps instead of the serrations of a
NordLock. Similar action but on a different scale The Norf-Lock
actually only claims 120% removal torque, while the disc-lock claims
150%. The Whiz-Lock claims 130%

The Stover works good on Grade 8 bolts although it is designed for
High Strength L9 fasteners.

[Clare Snyder]

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Bob La Londe

Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Post by Snag

Post by Joe Gwinn
You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
.<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>
Joe Gwinn

Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ...
Snag
------------------------------------
I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
lathe or drilled for safety wire.

The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.
Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against
one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
NASA study.
Joe Gwinn

Well, I didn't actually say that.

"Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the
mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer
deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had
left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."
Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and
maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise,
destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range
rolling truck tires are bad enough. Bloodcurdling.
This would have terrified me for sure.

Post by Bob La Londe
.... Just that two of the nuts came off
for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers
with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it
made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up
through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show
Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the
reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep
inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency
runaway pullouts.
This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The
cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I
bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before
I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with
regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can
tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have
stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two
of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily
into place (which surprised me).
These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were
just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could
find.
I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used
Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results
over the years.
I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its
necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would
be useful.

I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake
Nuts are insignificant.
By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.
And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and
did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with
jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped). Drake
Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would
shake loose. But this was before Loctite; this ought to work. The
distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.
Joe

For suspension bolts I like flanged locknuts. NEVER split lock
washers!!.

Agree - they are useless, as are the star lock washers.

Post by Clare Snyder
A serated nut with attached serated washer (LoxNut) is the
cat's ass. WhizLock nuts are a close second - particularly when
installed with medium lock-tite.

Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?
WhizNut did work, and it's only for cases where the thing being
clamped is a good bit softer than the nut.
<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/whiz-nuts/>

Post by Clare Snyder
Fijilok nuts work very well on adjustable threaded linkage - better
than NyLok

Fijilok not found, buried under irrelevant stuff.

Post by Clare Snyder
Flanged side distortion or top distortion nuts work well too -
particularly with medium lock-tite.

Do distorted nuts with loctite work better than plain nuts with
loctite?

Can't beat "belt and suspenders" - but always MEDIUM thread lock - if
I need to get out the torch to release the thread lock I mayas well
burn the sucker off!!!

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder
If you MUST use lock washers, Nord-Lock or Disk-Lock. Either one
requires 50% more torque to remove than the install torque (torque
stud to 100 lb/ft and it takes 150 to break it loose)

Nord-Lock is very good. <https://www.nord-lock.com/en-us/>
I had to look Disk-Lock up. <https://www.sherex.com/>
It is the Nord-Lock system (whose patents must have expired by now),
cloned and maybe improved. I would assume that it is also very good.
But I do think that while expensive, Drake Nuts are a whole lot
better. But this is the right conversation to be having.

Never seen a Drake before - ompressive.
Ever run into a Key-Lok? Equivalent to hitting the top thread with an
arc welder. That sucker is NEVER coming off - even if you want it
to!!!

Post by Joe Gwinn
War story. A family member was towing a boat trailer, but had not
attached the safety chains properly. If that trailer came loose,
someone was going to die. Whereupon I put my foot down and made him
use beefy threaded quick links.
<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/quick-links/>
So, I'd also consider adding some safety chains.
Joe Gwinn

I had a tent trailer jump off the ball once. Had good safety chains
crossed under the hitch but the toung jack took the abuse. It had a
rubber tire on it and by the time I got stopped it was worn to a cone
shape after attempting to drag the trailer off to the curb. From then
on I always BOLTED the hitch latch - using a nylock nut. Still don't
know how the clevis pin got out or why the latch released - I'm
CERTAIN I latched it - - - -

[Joe Gwinn]

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Bob La Londe

Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Post by Snag

Post by Joe Gwinn
You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
.<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>
Joe Gwinn

Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ...
Snag
------------------------------------
I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
lathe or drilled for safety wire.

The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.
Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against
one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
NASA study.
Joe Gwinn

Well, I didn't actually say that.

"Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the
mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer
deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had
left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."
Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and
maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise,
destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range
rolling truck tires are bad enough. Bloodcurdling.
This would have terrified me for sure.

Post by Bob La Londe
.... Just that two of the nuts came off
for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers
with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it
made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up
through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show
Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the
reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep
inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency
runaway pullouts.
This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The
cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I
bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before
I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with
regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can
tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have
stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two
of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily
into place (which surprised me).
These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were
just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could
find.
I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used
Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results
over the years.
I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its
necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would
be useful.

I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake
Nuts are insignificant.
By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.
And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and
did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with
jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped). Drake
Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would
shake loose. But this was before Loctite; this ought to work. The
distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.
Joe

For suspension bolts I like flanged locknuts. NEVER split lock
washers!!.

Agree - they are useless, as are the star lock washers.

Post by Clare Snyder
A serated nut with attached serated washer (LoxNut) is the
cat's ass. WhizLock nuts are a close second - particularly when
installed with medium lock-tite.

Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?
WhizNut did work, and it's only for cases where the thing being
clamped is a good bit softer than the nut.
<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/whiz-nuts/>

Post by Clare Snyder
Fijilok nuts work very well on adjustable threaded linkage - better
than NyLok

Fijilok not found, buried under irrelevant stuff.

Post by Clare Snyder
Flanged side distortion or top distortion nuts work well too -
particularly with medium lock-tite.

Do distorted nuts with loctite work better than plain nuts with
loctite?

Can't beat "belt and suspenders" - but always MEDIUM thread lock - if
I need to get out the torch to release the thread lock I mayas well
burn the sucker off!!!

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder
If you MUST use lock washers, Nord-Lock or Disk-Lock. Either one
requires 50% more torque to remove than the install torque (torque
stud to 100 lb/ft and it takes 150 to break it loose)

Nord-Lock is very good. <https://www.nord-lock.com/en-us/>
I had to look Disk-Lock up. <https://www.sherex.com/>
It is the Nord-Lock system (whose patents must have expired by now),
cloned and maybe improved. I would assume that it is also very good.
But I do think that while expensive, Drake Nuts are a whole lot
better. But this is the right conversation to be having.

Never seen a Drake before - ompressive.
Ever run into a Key-Lok? Equivalent to hitting the top thread with an
arc welder. That sucker is NEVER coming off - even if you want it
to!!!

Post by Joe Gwinn
War story. A family member was towing a boat trailer, but had not
attached the safety chains properly. If that trailer came loose,
someone was going to die. Whereupon I put my foot down and made him
use beefy threaded quick links.
<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/quick-links/>
So, I'd also consider adding some safety chains.
Joe Gwinn

I had a tent trailer jump off the ball once. Had good safety chains
crossed under the hitch but the tounge jack took the abuse. It had a
rubber tire on it and by the time I got stopped it was worn to a cone
shape after attempting to drag the trailer off to the curb. From then
on I always BOLTED the hitch latch - using a nylock nut. Still don't
know how the clevis pin got out or why the latch released - I'm
CERTAIN I latched it - - - -

Heart stopping to be sure.

I'm unclear as to what exactly came loose and then happened.

Joe Gwinn

[Clare Snyder]

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Bob La Londe

Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Post by Snag

Post by Joe Gwinn
You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
.<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>
Joe Gwinn

Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ...
Snag
------------------------------------
I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
lathe or drilled for safety wire.

The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.
Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against
one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
NASA study.
Joe Gwinn

Well, I didn't actually say that.

"Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the
mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer
deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had
left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."
Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and
maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise,
destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range
rolling truck tires are bad enough. Bloodcurdling.
This would have terrified me for sure.

Post by Bob La Londe
.... Just that two of the nuts came off
for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers
with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it
made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up
through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show
Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the
reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep
inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency
runaway pullouts.
This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The
cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I
bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before
I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with
regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can
tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have
stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two
of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily
into place (which surprised me).
These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were
just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could
find.
I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used
Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results
over the years.
I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its
necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would
be useful.

I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake
Nuts are insignificant.
By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.
And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and
did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with
jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped). Drake
Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would
shake loose. But this was before Loctite; this ought to work. The
distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.
Joe

For suspension bolts I like flanged locknuts. NEVER split lock
washers!!.

Agree - they are useless, as are the star lock washers.

Post by Clare Snyder
A serated nut with attached serated washer (LoxNut) is the
cat's ass. WhizLock nuts are a close second - particularly when
installed with medium lock-tite.

Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?
WhizNut did work, and it's only for cases where the thing being
clamped is a good bit softer than the nut.
<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/whiz-nuts/>

Post by Clare Snyder
Fijilok nuts work very well on adjustable threaded linkage - better
than NyLok

Fijilok not found, buried under irrelevant stuff.

Post by Clare Snyder
Flanged side distortion or top distortion nuts work well too -
particularly with medium lock-tite.

Do distorted nuts with loctite work better than plain nuts with
loctite?

Can't beat "belt and suspenders" - but always MEDIUM thread lock - if
I need to get out the torch to release the thread lock I mayas well
burn the sucker off!!!

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder
If you MUST use lock washers, Nord-Lock or Disk-Lock. Either one
requires 50% more torque to remove than the install torque (torque
stud to 100 lb/ft and it takes 150 to break it loose)

Nord-Lock is very good. <https://www.nord-lock.com/en-us/>
I had to look Disk-Lock up. <https://www.sherex.com/>
It is the Nord-Lock system (whose patents must have expired by now),
cloned and maybe improved. I would assume that it is also very good.
But I do think that while expensive, Drake Nuts are a whole lot
better. But this is the right conversation to be having.

Never seen a Drake before - ompressive.
Ever run into a Key-Lok? Equivalent to hitting the top thread with an
arc welder. That sucker is NEVER coming off - even if you want it
to!!!

Post by Joe Gwinn
War story. A family member was towing a boat trailer, but had not
attached the safety chains properly. If that trailer came loose,
someone was going to die. Whereupon I put my foot down and made him
use beefy threaded quick links.
<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/quick-links/>
So, I'd also consider adding some safety chains.
Joe Gwinn

I had a tent trailer jump off the ball once. Had good safety chains
crossed under the hitch but the tounge jack took the abuse. It had a
rubber tire on it and by the time I got stopped it was worn to a cone
shape after attempting to drag the trailer off to the curb. From then
on I always BOLTED the hitch latch - using a nylock nut. Still don't
know how the clevis pin got out or why the latch released - I'm
CERTAIN I latched it - - - -

Heart stopping to be sure.
I'm unclear as to what exactly came loose and then happened.
Joe Gwinn

The hitch unlatched from the ball. For that to happen the dafety had
to release - and it was SUPPOSED to be secured with a latch-pin. When
it jumped off the ball it was suspended on the crossed safety chains
but the toung jack wheel, which was pointing slightly to the right,
touched the ground and tried to stear the trailer to the curb and the
pavement acted like a grinder and "machined" the tire into a cone.
After that I ALWAYS double check the hitch and make sure everything
is secured before starting out - and at every stop.

[Joe Gwinn]

[snip]

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Clare Snyder
[CS]
I had a tent trailer jump off the ball once. Had good safety chains
crossed under the hitch but the tounge jack took the abuse. It had a
rubber tire on it and by the time I got stopped it was worn to a cone
shape after attempting to drag the trailer off to the curb. From then
on I always BOLTED the hitch latch - using a nylock nut. Still don't
know how the clevis pin got out or why the latch released - I'm
CERTAIN I latched it - - - -

Heart stopping to be sure.
I'm unclear as to what exactly came loose and then happened.
Joe Gwinn

The hitch unlatched from the ball. For that to happen the safety had
to release - and it was SUPPOSED to be secured with a latch-pin. When
it jumped off the ball it was suspended on the crossed safety chains
but the tounge jack wheel, which was pointing slightly to the right,
touched the ground and tried to steer the trailer to the curb and the
pavement acted like a grinder and "machined" the tire into a cone.
After that I ALWAYS double check the hitch and make sure everything
is secured before starting out - and at every stop.

Ahh. That makes sense. This story is one of the standard arguments
for the pintle hitch over any ball hitch.

Joe Gwinn

[Jim Wilkins]

"Joe Gwinn" wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...

On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Post by Snag

Post by Joe Gwinn
You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
.<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>
Joe Gwinn

Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ...
Snag
------------------------------------
I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
lathe or drilled for safety wire.

The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.

Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against
one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
NASA study.

Joe Gwinn
----------------------------------
https://www.aftfasteners.com/drake-two-piece-lock-nuts/

Good guess, Snag.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Joe Gwinn" wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...

The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.

Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against
one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
NASA study.

Joe Gwinn
----------------------------
I'd gladly use them if the customer specified and paid for them. As both the
designer and the builder/repairman I used best practices in the design and
whatever was available on site for repairs, such as first aid kit Iodine for
thread locker.

[Clare Snyder]

Post by Bob La Londe

Post by David Billington

Post by Bob La Londe
I recently had to install new axles on a trailer in order to get
working brakes on the trailer... Don't lecture me about how you could
have done this or that and not replaced them. They were oddballs and I
wasted a couple weeks looking for other solutions.
The u-bolts that came with the new axles came with the destructive
style lock nuts. I don't mind to much. I hoped to never have to deal
with this again on this trailer anyway. On my second run to go pick up
a truck and haul it halfway across the state over some mountains and
some modestly substantial grades and weave through the Salt River
Canyon two nuts came off.
When the nuts came off I don't know, but when I went over a bump the
axle popped off the springs and the tire slammed into the tire behind.
I had just hit 65 mph and it suddenly felt wrong. I was running empty
and all of a sudden it felt like I was running with a load. I glanced
at the mirror and smoke was pouring off those tires so bad I thought a
hub was on fire. Fortunately, there was on old stock yard just ahead
with a lot of flat ground out front where I was able to safely pull
out somewhere west of Coolidge. The axle coming loose turned out to be
an easy fix. Since I was still running empty I just jacked the side of
the trailer up, rolled the axle back in place, and ratchet strapped it
tight. Then I whipped out my cell phone and entered NEAREST HARDWARE
STORE into the search window.
The U-bolt that had fallen off was just barely hanging onto the axle
still by the extra friction of the threads. The other U-bolt was still
attached to the cross plate by the nuts. At least I wasn't wondering
where in small town Arizona I was going to find U-bolts.
There was a Tractor Supply store in Coolidge that had TWO (2) (just
two) 9/16 fine nuts. They were in the wrong bin, but I found them.
With that, a couple fresh lock washers, and copious amounts of red
high strength Permatex thread locker I crawled under the trailer in
the parking lot to fix it.
Coming back I stopped and checked the trailer and my load at every
brake check lane and pullout. With a 3/4 ton Dodge w/ Cummins on the
back I made it back through the mountains and across the Salt River
Canyon almost with out incident. Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of
Globe/Miami I glanced in the mirror to see one of the hooks for a
front strap laying on the trailer deck. The strap broke where it went
over the frame.  Fortunately I had left the winch cable tight or I
might have lost the truck.
I'm too old for this sort of adventure. I prepared for everything I
could think of. Brought tools, and materials for emergencies, and did
everything I could think of to prevent problems before setting out.
Yes, the nuts were torqued down properly both times. LOL.
Yeah, I know... there are plenty among you who can tell me everything
they think I did wrong, but at the end I made it home. Now I have to
get that truck back off the trailer.

Good to hear no serious damage or injury. What do you mean by a
destructive locknut, It's not something I've heard of before. I wonder
if it was poor quality hardware. I was reading recently about a guy that
was rebuilding the diff and final drive in his car and decided to use
new bolts for the CW fixing but they failed when tightened before he
reach the correct torque, apparently made in Asia, he re-used the
original ones in the end and no problems.

I know you guys have to know what I am talking about. There is a type
of lock nut that is dimpled or punched that partially mangles the
threads when installed to lock it in place. These have square punch
marks on the flat.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

They are called a "prevailing torque" "top distortion" nut -or a
"side distortion" nut. There are also "two way" locknuts Then there
arer "gripco" "crownlock" nuts
NONE of them are inherently "destructive" and all are considered
"re-useable"
There are also "stover" nuts and "FujiLoks"

All of these can be used in various temperature situations including
under cowl in aircrafdt - while "nylock" and "fiberlock" are
restricted in aviation - and should be used with caution anywhere
higher temps are anticipated.
The only "destructive" locknuts I've run into are stainless steel
nuts - paricularly on stainless fasteners - sometimes even with
anti-seize, which gall and microweld themselves together - - - - The
square punch marks centered on the flats sound like possibly 2 ways.
Not flanged nuts, right? What grade bolt? Using prevailing torque nuts
designed for a higher grade bolt CAN make them "destructive"

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:uvc4o3$2hrcg$***@dont-email.me...

The u-bolts that came with the new axles came with the destructive style
lock nuts.

-------------------------

Google isn't telling me what a "destructive" lock nut is.

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Bob La Londe
The u-bolts that came with the new axles came with the destructive style
lock nuts.
-------------------------
Google isn't telling me what a "destructive" lock nut is.

I know you guys have to know what I am talking about. There is a type
of lock nut that is dimpled or punched that partially mangles the
threads when installed to lock it in place. These have square punch
marks on the flat.

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Bob La Londe
The u-bolts that came with the new axles came with the destructive style
lock nuts.
-------------------------
Google isn't telling me what a "destructive" lock nut is.

I know you guys have to know what I am talking about. There is a type
of lock nut that is dimpled or punched that partially mangles the
threads when installed to lock it in place. These have square punch
marks on the flat.