Hinge Rivets

[Bob La Londe]

After Jim's suggestions to make my own tool box I started looking at low
volume (as in physical space) methods of creating all the pivot points.
The actual hinges of the box lids may need to be actual hinges. I'm not
sure I have the ability with the tools I currently own to make slip
rolled hinges from the sheet metal. They would need to be rolled quite
small. I do have a spot welder so it might be a good place to look into
learning to use it.

My big concern is the smooth tight pivoting of the tray links. A pop
rivet might not work for a couple reasons. First is that it would clamp
the link to the tray, and the send is that even the shortest pop rivet
sticks into the space beyond a noticeable amount. I got to wonder if
there was a rivet that is designed to leave a fixed space between the
flange and the mushroom. To be used obviously as a pivot pin instead of
a corby bolt, a machine screw, or other intrusive pivot pin. It turns
out there is a thing called a hinge rivet. One vendor sells a 20 pack
of them for 56 cents. Quality unknown. I've never used one and various
searches including YouTube for using them resulted in guides and
tutorials on riveting hinges. Not hinge rivets.

I thought about it little bit, and something like an eyelet tool with a
fixed depth stop could probably be used/made to install them. Perhaps
as a plier or compound plier tool. I suppose a parallel compound plier
tool would be ideal. This way they could be set to whatever thickness
clearance was needed so the pivot could move freely, but not to freely.

On further thought I figured such hinge rivets could be made on the
lathe, or possible even just out of plane tube. Even ordinary open end
pop rivets might work if removed from the mandrel. Of course if the bag
of 20 for 56¢ is any good there is no need to make them for relatively
med/light weight applications like the link pivots on the trays of a hip
roof box.

Yes, Jim, I am thinking out loud to help get the job defined, but also I
am open to suggestions from anybody who has already done any part of
this type of work.

P.S. I do have a 48inch Tennsmith box brake, a smaller 30inch bench top
brake, and even a smaller magnetic mounted vise brake for mangling sheet
metal. The last sheet metal job I did was making a stove cubby surround
out of stainless sheet. It turned out well enough for a relatively
simple job, and provides a heat shield for the spice cabinets my wife
laid out that come out half way along the sides of the stove between the
upper and lower cabinets. Yeah, I was not crazy about a fuel source int
eh same area as some future potential grease fire. The stainless looks
good and provides shield hopefully long enough for a fire extinguisher
to do its job. Of course no distance or angle was quite the same,
parallel, or perpendicular, so the sheet metal shall had to be custom
bent to fit...

P.P.S. I found and bought a couple cheap used hiproof boxes to use to
help figure out the geometry rather than figure it all out from scratch.
Hopefully the geometry scales well. I can always resell the boxes.
Maybe fill them up with garbage tools and make somebody think they got a
deal.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:v4q2pi$skkt$***@dont-email.me...

After Jim's suggestions to make my own tool box I started looking at low
volume (as in physical space) methods of creating all the pivot points.
The actual hinges of the box lids may need to be actual hinges. I'm not
sure I have the ability with the tools I currently own to make slip
rolled hinges from the sheet metal. They would need to be rolled quite
small. I do have a spot welder so it might be a good place to look into
learning to use it.

----------------------------------
I'd like to own a separate shear and finger brake but I lack the space, so
when I ran a well equipped company model shop I experimented to see how
little I could get away with at home. It came down to a 30" shear/brake/roll
and hand tools like "seamer" pliers, a clone of the Roper #5 punch and
layout tools. Punching is much neater than drilling sheetmetal, and the
punch has a point to help align it in a layout dimple. Intersecting corners
in a box should end in a small punched hole. A corner notcher is nice to
have when folding trays and boxes, I bought one at auction, but it's not
essential.
.
I've formed a hinge barrel around a rod in the bottom of a U bend by
squeezing/hammering the folded flap shut, tightly up against the rod. This
is easier and stronger than trying to roll up only the edge and leaves space
for the spotwelds. I think the grooves in the 3-in-1's slip rollers could do
it more neatly than I did with blocks of scrap, if I had planned the
sequence of operations better. It helps to try your intended bends etc on
scrap to be sure of machine clearances and limits. For instance I can't form
a flange less than 1/2" wide with the press brake because a narrower one
will slide down into the lower die. If I bend a narrower flange over an edge
with a soft hammer the metal must be moved a little at a time from end to
end or else it will stretch and warp the flange. Hammering on a piece of
wood held against the flange works better than pounding directly on it, and
sharpens the corner.

For the tray link pivots I might make the links thick enough to tap for
short or cut-off machine screws, use hobby store brass tube as the pivot
bushing and lightly peen or Loctite the end of the threads into the link.
The OD of #5 screws is 1/8", #6 is 9/64" and #10 is 3/16". #8 may be
slightly over 5/32", a tap will fit it. The heel of my small anvil is handy
for riveting 3D shapes.

Sheet metal can be sheared with a cold chisel along the top edges of
hardened vise jaws, preferably reversed to put their smooth back sides
against the work. This is useful for cutouts. It can be milled by screwing
it to plywood around the edges and through any/all existing holes.

Good luck!

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Bob La Londe
After Jim's suggestions to make my own tool box I started looking at low
volume (as in physical space) methods of creating all the pivot points.
The actual hinges of the box lids may need to be actual hinges.  I'm not
sure I have the ability with the tools I currently own to make slip
rolled hinges from the sheet metal.  They would need to be rolled quite
small.  I do have a spot welder so it might be a good place to look into
learning to use it.
----------------------------------
I'd like to own a separate shear and finger brake but I lack the space,
so when I ran a well equipped company model shop I experimented to see
how little I could get away with at home. It came down to a 30"
shear/brake/roll and hand tools like "seamer" pliers, a clone of the
Roper #5 punch and layout tools. Punching is much neater than drilling
sheetmetal, and the punch has a point to help align it in a layout
dimple. Intersecting corners in a box should end in a small punched
hole. A corner notcher is nice to have when folding trays and boxes, I
bought one at auction, but it's not essential.
.
I've formed a hinge barrel around a rod in the bottom of a U bend by
squeezing/hammering the folded flap shut, tightly up against the rod.
This is easier and stronger than trying to roll up only the edge and
leaves space for the spotwelds. I think the grooves in the 3-in-1's slip
rollers could do it more neatly than I did with blocks of scrap, if I
had planned the sequence of operations better. It helps to try your
intended bends etc on scrap to be sure of machine clearances and limits.
For instance I can't form a flange less than 1/2" wide with the press
brake because a narrower one will slide down into the lower die. If I
bend a narrower flange over an edge with a soft hammer the metal must be
moved a little at a time from end to end or else it will stretch and
warp the flange. Hammering on a piece of wood held against the flange
works better than pounding directly on it, and sharpens the corner.
For the tray link pivots I might make the links thick enough to tap for
short or cut-off machine screws, use hobby store brass tube as the pivot
bushing and lightly peen or Loctite the end of the threads into the
link. The OD of #5 screws is 1/8",  #6 is 9/64" and #10 is 3/16". #8 may
be slightly over 5/32", a tap will fit it. The heel of my small anvil is
handy for riveting 3D shapes.
Sheet metal can be sheared with a cold chisel along the top edges of
hardened vise jaws, preferably reversed to put their smooth back sides
against the work. This is useful for cutouts. It can be milled by
screwing it to plywood around the edges and through any/all existing holes.
Good luck!

Tiny little shoulder bolts might be a good option, but probably more
expensive in cash to buy or time to make.

[David Billington]

Post by Bob La Londe
After Jim's suggestions to make my own tool box I started looking at
low volume (as in physical space) methods of creating all the pivot
points. The actual hinges of the box lids may need to be actual
hinges.  I'm not sure I have the ability with the tools I currently
own to make slip rolled hinges from the sheet metal. They would need
to be rolled quite small.  I do have a spot welder so it might be a
good place to look into learning to use it.
My big concern is the smooth tight pivoting of the tray links.  A pop
rivet might not work for a couple reasons.  First is that it would
clamp the link to the tray, and the send is that even the shortest pop
rivet sticks into the space beyond a noticeable amount.  I got to
wonder if there was a rivet that is designed to leave a fixed space
between the flange and the mushroom.  To be used obviously as a pivot
pin instead of a corby bolt, a machine screw, or other intrusive pivot
pin.  It turns out there is a thing called a hinge rivet.  One vendor
sells a 20 pack of them for 56 cents.  Quality unknown.  I've never
used one and various searches including YouTube for using them
resulted in guides and tutorials on riveting hinges.  Not hinge rivets.
I thought about it little bit, and something like an eyelet tool with
a fixed depth stop could probably be used/made to install them. 
Perhaps as a plier or compound plier tool.  I suppose a parallel
compound plier tool would be ideal.  This way they could be set to
whatever thickness clearance was needed so the pivot could move
freely, but not to freely.
On further thought I figured such hinge rivets could be made on the
lathe, or possible even just out of plane tube.  Even ordinary open
end pop rivets might work if removed from the mandrel.  Of course if
the bag of 20 for 56¢ is any good there is no need to make them for
relatively med/light weight applications like the link pivots on the
trays of a hip roof box.
Yes, Jim, I am thinking out loud to help get the job defined, but also
I am open to suggestions from anybody who has already done any part of
this type of work.
P.S.  I do have a 48inch Tennsmith box brake, a smaller 30inch bench
top brake, and even a smaller magnetic mounted vise brake for mangling
sheet metal.  The last sheet metal job I did was making a stove cubby
surround out of stainless sheet.  It turned out well enough for a
relatively simple job, and provides a heat shield for the spice
cabinets my wife laid out that come out half way along the sides of
the stove between the upper and lower cabinets.  Yeah, I was not crazy
about a fuel source int eh same area as some future potential grease
fire.  The stainless looks good and provides shield hopefully long
enough for a fire extinguisher to do its job.  Of course no distance
or angle was quite the same, parallel, or perpendicular, so the sheet
metal shall had to be custom bent to fit...
P.P.S.  I found and bought a couple cheap used hiproof boxes to use to
help figure out the geometry rather than figure it all out from
scratch.  Hopefully the geometry scales well.  I can always resell the
boxes. Maybe fill them up with garbage tools and make somebody think
they got a deal.

Have you looked at piano hinge? Cut to the length you require, it can
come with or without hole for mounting.

[Bob La Londe]

Post by David Billington

Post by Bob La Londe
After Jim's suggestions to make my own tool box I started looking at
low volume (as in physical space) methods of creating all the pivot
points. The actual hinges of the box lids may need to be actual
hinges.  I'm not sure I have the ability with the tools I currently
own to make slip rolled hinges from the sheet metal. They would need
to be rolled quite small.  I do have a spot welder so it might be a
good place to look into learning to use it.
My big concern is the smooth tight pivoting of the tray links.  A pop
rivet might not work for a couple reasons.  First is that it would
clamp the link to the tray, and the send is that even the shortest pop
rivet sticks into the space beyond a noticeable amount.  I got to
wonder if there was a rivet that is designed to leave a fixed space
between the flange and the mushroom.  To be used obviously as a pivot
pin instead of a corby bolt, a machine screw, or other intrusive pivot
pin.  It turns out there is a thing called a hinge rivet.  One vendor
sells a 20 pack of them for 56 cents.  Quality unknown.  I've never
used one and various searches including YouTube for using them
resulted in guides and tutorials on riveting hinges.  Not hinge rivets.
I thought about it little bit, and something like an eyelet tool with
a fixed depth stop could probably be used/made to install them.
Perhaps as a plier or compound plier tool.  I suppose a parallel
compound plier tool would be ideal.  This way they could be set to
whatever thickness clearance was needed so the pivot could move
freely, but not to freely.
On further thought I figured such hinge rivets could be made on the
lathe, or possible even just out of plane tube.  Even ordinary open
end pop rivets might work if removed from the mandrel.  Of course if
the bag of 20 for 56¢ is any good there is no need to make them for
relatively med/light weight applications like the link pivots on the
trays of a hip roof box.
Yes, Jim, I am thinking out loud to help get the job defined, but also
I am open to suggestions from anybody who has already done any part of
this type of work.
P.S.  I do have a 48inch Tennsmith box brake, a smaller 30inch bench
top brake, and even a smaller magnetic mounted vise brake for mangling
sheet metal.  The last sheet metal job I did was making a stove cubby
surround out of stainless sheet.  It turned out well enough for a
relatively simple job, and provides a heat shield for the spice
cabinets my wife laid out that come out half way along the sides of
the stove between the upper and lower cabinets.  Yeah, I was not crazy
about a fuel source int eh same area as some future potential grease
fire.  The stainless looks good and provides shield hopefully long
enough for a fire extinguisher to do its job.  Of course no distance
or angle was quite the same, parallel, or perpendicular, so the sheet
metal shall had to be custom bent to fit...
P.P.S.  I found and bought a couple cheap used hiproof boxes to use to
help figure out the geometry rather than figure it all out from
scratch.  Hopefully the geometry scales well.  I can always resell the
boxes. Maybe fill them up with garbage tools and make somebody think
they got a deal.

Have you looked at piano hinge? Cut to the length you require, it can
come with or without hole for mounting.

Yeah I was thinking piano hinge or whatever equivalent I have laying
around left over from repairing boat compartment doors for the roof/lid
hinges. What I was more thinking about was the pivot points for the
connecting links between the trays.

[Jim Wilkins]

Have you looked at piano hinge? Cut to the length you require, it can come
with or without hole for mounting.

Yeah I was thinking piano hinge or whatever equivalent I have laying
around left over from repairing boat compartment doors for the roof/lid
hinges. What I was more thinking about was the pivot points for the
connecting links between the trays.
Bob La Londe

----------------------------------

The hardest part of my suggestion may be finding short enough screws. The
brass tubing "shoulders" could be parted off quickly with a rod or drill bit
inside to retain them and quick length setting with a ruler, as they can be
a bit too long. Another possibility is undercutting the head, there's more
than enough metal on a Phillips pan head to turn a step for sheetmetal. All
the common number-size machine screws except #8 can be chucked in a
fractional 5C collet. Even on my old leather-belt lathe with a handwheel
collet closer, making one cut apiece in a dozen screws goes pretty quickly.
Usually they are clearance cuts to eyeball accuracy.

I modify small screws in batches so I made cup shaped screw holders tapped
for the sizes I use, up to 1/2" which was for battery mounting posts for a
Segway project. The walls of the cup are about the length of a 5C gripping
surface and the back is bored out to cut off protruding threads short. I cut
a shallow groove near each end to make removing them from the collet easier.

The best one, which I've made only for 3/8-16 so far, was tapped full
length, grooved on both ends for the O rings that keep it together, then
sawed lengthwise in thirds to align with 5C slots or pairs of jaws on the
6-jaw. It grabs the whole thread, not just the crest like a collet which is
less secure.

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Bob La Londe

Post by David Billington
Have you looked at piano hinge? Cut to the length you require, it can
come with or without hole for mounting.

Yeah I was thinking piano hinge or whatever equivalent I have laying
around left over from repairing boat compartment doors for the roof/lid
hinges.  What I was more thinking about was the pivot points for the
connecting links between the trays.
Bob La Londe
----------------------------------
The hardest part of my suggestion may be finding short enough screws.
The brass tubing "shoulders" could be parted off quickly with a rod or
drill bit inside to retain them and quick length setting with a ruler,
as they can be a bit too long. Another possibility is undercutting the
head, there's more than enough metal on a Phillips pan head to turn a
step for sheetmetal. All the common number-size machine screws except #8
can be chucked in a fractional 5C collet. Even on my old leather-belt
lathe with a handwheel collet closer, making one cut apiece in a dozen
screws goes pretty quickly. Usually they are clearance cuts to eyeball
accuracy.
I modify small screws in batches so I made cup shaped screw holders
tapped for the sizes I use, up to 1/2" which was for battery mounting
posts for a Segway project. The walls of the cup are about the length of
a 5C gripping surface and the back is bored out to cut off protruding
threads short. I cut a shallow groove near each end to make removing
them from the collet easier.
The best one, which I've made only for 3/8-16 so far, was tapped full
length, grooved on both ends for the O rings that keep it together, then
sawed lengthwise in thirds to align with 5C slots or pairs of jaws on
the 6-jaw. It grabs the whole thread, not just the crest like a collet
which is less secure.

Shoulder bolts are certainly an option. I was hoping somebody here had
experience with hinge rivets (not riveted hinges) so I could determine
if it was something I wanted to mess with. I'll probably only ever make
one tool box like this. An extra half hour or so probably doesn't
matter for just one, but the knowledge, tools, and skills may be useful
for other things.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:v4sgvn$1f894$***@dont-email.me...

I was hoping somebody here had experience with hinge rivets (not riveted
hinges) so I could determine
if it was something I wanted to mess with. I'll probably only ever make
one tool box like this. An extra half hour or so probably doesn't
matter for just one, but the knowledge, tools, and skills may be useful
for other things.
Bob La Londe

--------------------------------------
Sorry, I don't, they weren't an electronic hardware item. There are several
electronic parts with tubular rivet bases but they don't handle much stress.
Usually whatever I design and make can be disassembled after trial fitting,
to paint, repair or modify.

These and competitors' cheaper copies are very useful on sheet metal,
especially for blind assembly threaded holes in aluminum. .
https://www.pemnet.com/products/product-finder/

To avoid machining you might consider Chicago screws with space-filling
washers.
https://www.beltcraft.com/blogs/belt-blog/102198721-chicago-screws-what-they-are-and-why-your-belt-might-need-them

In industry I've headed rivets on a drill press equipped with a Grant
Twin-Spin tool.
https://www.grantriveters.com/prod02.htm

[Bob La Londe]

Post by Jim Wilkins
In industry I've headed rivets on a drill press equipped with a Grant
Twin-Spin tool.

I've headed a rivet with a hammer once or twice. Once you get over the
initial trepidation its not to hard.

[Snag]

Post by Jim Wilkins
In industry I've headed rivets on a drill press equipped with a Grant
Twin-Spin tool.

I've headed a rivet with a hammer once or twice.  Once you get over the
initial trepidation its not to hard.

I made a rivet set with a half inch diameter dimple for heading rivets
when I was forging tongs . One of these days I need to finish that set
of "bolt tongs" I started .

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:v4sni1$1gisb$***@dont-email.me...

I've headed a rivet with a hammer once or twice. Once you get over the
initial trepidation its not to hard.
Bob La Londe

------------------------------
I practiced riveting until I could form a symmetrical dome with a nice
dimpled pattern with a ball pein hammer, without scarring the area around. I
wanted to learn to make costume armor and got as far as a helmet and
chainmail shirt.

Solid rivets are intended to expand to tightly fill the hole, which may be
why all of the hinge rivets I've seen were tubular on the end. My attempts
to expand the tubular part of shop-made rivets (pulley shafts) without
deforming the solid section haven't been promising. Obviously they work, but
not with any homebrew hammer setting method I've tried, such as conical
center punches, or ball-end ones from a dapping set. Plan B was a custom
shoulder screw or a sleeve on a standard screw, as I suggested. I backed
away from rivets to avoid having to remove a bad one from otherwise finished
work.

The undercut screw head was the easiest to make, with a parting bit so I
could set the width with the lathe off after chucking the screw and control
diameter with infeed. IIRC I set the width by eye to half the 1/16"
thickness of the HSS bit. They were for antenna mast joints, not pivots.

The closest I came to making a successful tubular rivet set was a
screw-together setting tool for 3/8" brass grommets, which I could use on a
ladder for repairs to hanging tarps, such as aligning the grommets on old
and new ones.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:v4t3d5$1iurg$***@dont-email.me...
...
The closest I came to making a successful tubular rivet set was a
screw-together setting tool for 3/8" brass grommets, which I could use on a
ladder for repairs to hanging tarps, such as aligning the grommets on old
and new ones.

--------------------------

This has a sketch of a tubular rivet setting punch.
https://rampomatic.com/blogs/tutorials/riveting-101-you-can-do-it

I've used my Roper #5 Jr clone with a shop made punch and die, to dimple for
countersunk rivets. They need to be hardened so they don't expand and jam.

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Jim Wilkins
I've used my Roper #5 Jr clone with a shop made punch and die, to dimple
for countersunk rivets. They need to be hardened so they don't expand and
jam.

This is a larger and more capable version. I bought mine used for much much
less.
https://www.roperwhitney.com/our-products/no-xx-hand-punch-deep-throat/

They have the advantages over a hand punch and hammer of guaranteed
alignment and sensitive feel and adjustment between adequate and damaging
pressure. Within limits they can add neat and accurately placed holes to
sheet metal that's already been formed. Custom punches are simple to fit if
you can't find them to buy.

A ball end mill can serve as a lathe concave radius cutter. For a convex
radius cutter I grind an HSS blank with a conical stone, which gives a
circular arc with front edge relief. Usually the radius doesn't need to be a
precise size.

The type of used bench punch I would not recommend for occasional one-off
jobs uses four horizontal setscrews to carefully align the square die with
the punch. Although it was quite capable the set-up time was too long,
though I'd still buy one at the right low price.

The fuss, risk and tooling cost of riveting drove me to modifying standard
hardware into shoulder screws etc where production could use rivets. I
bought the proper tooling when the company would pay for it, at home I
collect it second-hand or design and make my own.

I hope I didn't send you down the wrong path. Sheet metal work is fairly
easy only with the right equipment, which I used industrially and acquired
enough of at home.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:v4sni1$1gisb$***@dont-email.me...

I've headed a rivet with a hammer once or twice. Once you get over the
initial trepidation its not to hard.
Bob La Londe

------------------------------

This is a very useful tool for trial assembly before riveting.
https://www.amazon.com/Cleco-Fastener-Starter-Kit-Fasteners/dp/B08VRQSF6Y

They are the right size for Pop rivets or the aligned holes can be opened up
to other sizes. They are especially good in blind holes or ones where the
back side can be reached for a nut but not seen, like auto body repair. The
cheaper alternative is number 5 hardware of 1/8" diameter. I use Clecos
where I'm actively working and #5s elsewhere. Temporary assembly with these
lets you fit the joints and then disassemble the project for cleanup and
painting.