Discussion:
Watchmakers Lathe help...?
(too old to reply)
Youra
2007-06-09 18:26:43 UTC
Permalink
Hi all.

The folk on alt.holorogy suggested someone here might be able to shed
some light......

Can anyone help with identifying a (Polish?? - the motor says 'made
in Poland') 'Geneva pattern' watchmakers lathe I've recently
acquired:

Loading Image...

There's space for two nameplates, but they vanished before it got to
me...

I'm also struggling with adjusting the headstock bearings.

Some pictures:

Loading Image...
Loading Image...
Loading Image...

The main issue from my point of view - is there a bit (another
bearing??) missing from the left hand end (farend.jpg shows that bit
unscrewed slightly for clarity).

If there is no part missing, then the plain steel washer (second in
from the left in that picture) which is attached to the spindle rubs
against the end of the threaded bearing retainer (the bronze thread
just visible to the right) - this is a tiny bearing surface, and it
makes me very nervous.
On other lathes (my Lorch for example) this is a proper tapered
(plain) thrust bearing, rather than this tiny thing. For some scale,
the threaded portion of the bronze bearing retainer visible extends
approx 1.1mm out from the nut on the far right.

There is a ball bearing thrust race within the left hand end of the
pulley and adjusting that acts to tighten this very small bearing
surface, making matters worse.....

Any ideas how I might improve matters at that end of the headstock ?

Thanks,

Youra.
w***@hotmail.com
2007-06-09 19:18:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Youra
Hi all.
The folk on alt.holorogy suggested someone here might be able to shed
some light......
Can anyone help with identifying a (Polish?? - the motor says 'made
in Poland') 'Geneva pattern' watchmakers lathe I've recently
http://www.gloubiboulga.org/Lathe/FullLathe.jpg
There's space for two nameplates, but they vanished before it got to
me...
I'm also struggling with adjusting the headstock bearings.
Loading Image...
The main issue from my point of view - is there a bit (another
bearing??) missing from the left hand end (farend.jpg shows that bit
unscrewed slightly for clarity).
If there is no part missing, then the plain steel washer (second in
from the left in that picture) which is attached to the spindle rubs
against the end of the threaded bearing retainer (the bronze thread
just visible to the right) - this is a tiny bearing surface, and it
makes me very nervous.
On other lathes (my Lorch for example) this is a proper tapered
(plain) thrust bearing, rather than this tiny thing. For some scale,
the threaded portion of the bronze bearing retainer visible extends
approx 1.1mm out from the nut on the far right.
There is a ball bearing thrust race within the left hand end of the
pulley and adjusting that acts to tighten this very small bearing
surface, making matters worse.....
Any ideas how I might improve matters at that end of the headstock ?
Thanks,
Youra.
Are you sure the spindle is NOT on ball bearings?

The reason I ask is that on my Swiss Bergeron lathe the headstock
bearing housing's outside dimension is MUCH smaller than appears in
your picture. This of course assumes that your spindle is standard
watchmaker's size and accepts standard 8mm collets.

I would investigate this first. If you are really lucky it will be
angular contact ball bearings.

Should they turn out to be plain bearings let's hope that they are
tapered and easily adjustable as on commercial watchmaker's lathes.

In either case noted above you simply adjust the spindle tail-end nut
until there is no axial or radial clearance....that simple. Use thin
high quality oil for lubrication. I use Singer sewing machine oil and
the spindle runs at 6,000 rpm+ without getting too warm.

Let us know what you find.

Wolfgang
Youra
2007-06-09 20:51:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@hotmail.com
Are you sure the spindle is NOT on ball bearings?
Yep - definately - I've had the whole thing to bits.
Post by w***@hotmail.com
The reason I ask is that on my Swiss Bergeronlathethe headstock
bearing housing's outside dimension is MUCH smaller than appears in
your picture. This of course assumes that your spindle is standard
watchmaker's size and accepts standard 8mm collets.
I would investigate this first. If you are really lucky it will be
angular contact ball bearings.
No such simplicity.....!
Post by w***@hotmail.com
Should they turn out to be plain bearings let's hope that they are
tapered and easily adjustable as on commercial watchmaker's lathes.
The 'chuck end' bearing is tapered (but quite shallow) and the
"drawbar handle' end is plain/parallel.

There are ball bearings, but they are thrust only at the left hand end
of the pulley - quite an odd arrangement.
Post by w***@hotmail.com
In either case noted above you simply adjust the spindle tail-end nut
until there is no axial or radial clearance....that simple. Use thin
high quality oil for lubrication. I use Singer sewing machine oil and
the spindle runs at 6,000 rpm+ without getting too warm.
Let us know what you find.
Wolfgang
I wonder if there's a bit missing....... (an extra bearing, for
example....?)
w***@hotmail.com
2007-06-11 17:24:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Youra
Post by w***@hotmail.com
Are you sure the spindle is NOT on ball bearings?
Yep - definately - I've had the whole thing to bits.
Post by w***@hotmail.com
The reason I ask is that on my Swiss Bergeronlathethe headstock
bearing housing's outside dimension is MUCH smaller than appears in
your picture. This of course assumes that your spindle is standard
watchmaker's size and accepts standard 8mm collets.
I would investigate this first. If you are really lucky it will be
angular contact ball bearings.
No such simplicity.....!
Post by w***@hotmail.com
Should they turn out to be plain bearings let's hope that they are
tapered and easily adjustable as on commercial watchmaker's lathes.
The 'chuck end' bearing is tapered (but quite shallow) and the
"drawbar handle' end is plain/parallel.
There are ball bearings, but they are thrust only at the left hand end
of the pulley - quite an odd arrangement.
Post by w***@hotmail.com
In either case noted above you simply adjust the spindle tail-end nut
until there is no axial or radial clearance....that simple. Use thin
high quality oil for lubrication. I use Singer sewing machine oil and
the spindle runs at 6,000 rpm+ without getting too warm.
Let us know what you find.
Wolfgang
I wonder if there's a bit missing....... (an extra bearing, for
example....?)
Hmmmmm,

Let me see:

You have a shallow, single taper, plain bearing at the chuck end
a parallel (cylindrical) bearing at the tail end
a ball thrust bearing on the right-hand-side of the tail end bearing

OK, then two thrust bearings are required to adjust the running
clearance for the chuck end bearing: place an additional ball thrust
bearing on the left-hand-side of the tail end bearing of the spindle,
and adjust the tail-end nut for running clearance.

The running clearance of the tail end bearing would require a separate
adjustment....removal of shim, tightening of bearing cap screws,
shaving the bearing cap...you need to decide.

The beauty of the standard watchmaker's lathe plain bearings, and
angular contact ball or roller bearings, is the simplicity for the
elimination of excessive bearing clearance. Once you mix-and-match
stuff without thinking things through life becomes complicated.

Trust this helps.

Wolfgang
Youra
2007-06-11 21:02:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@hotmail.com
The beauty of the standard watchmaker's lathe plain bearings, and
angular contact ball or roller bearings, is the simplicity for the
elimination of excessive bearing clearance. Once you mix-and-match
stuff without thinking things through life becomes complicated.
Trust this helps.
Wolfgang
I does thank you - I've also had a little advice over on alt.horology
about adjusting things, and I seem to have managed a smooth and shake-
free set up after some fiddling - the holding still of the spindle
whilst everything was tightened was a little awkward though.

I'll see how I go for a while without further modification (there is
after all not very much pressure on the bearing that worries me when
everything is properly adjusted) and then consider a thin roller
thrust bearing perhaps at the far left end to replace the plain
contact one that there is there just now - anything would need to fit
in quite a restricted thickness....

Thanks,

Youra.
David
2007-06-10 01:55:53 UTC
Permalink
This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
_
2007-06-10 19:55:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
I hate to sound picky, but that is not a watchmakers lathe, possibly a clock
maker or an instument makers lathe. All the watchmakes lathes I have seen
including mine have no cross slide, turning is more like a wood workers
lathe using a graver against the steel.
Nonsense.

While it is true that a lot of *watchmaking* on a lathe uses a graver as
you describe, the cross-slide, double-cross-slide, and triple-cross-slide
were made and used for many D-bed lathes - as were threading attachements,
milling spindles, grinders, etcetera.
David
2007-06-11 06:54:29 UTC
Permalink
This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
_
2007-06-11 11:31:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
Shit what a fool I am, after 40 years of watchmaking I did not know that,
wow good job there is someone here who knows everything
David
No, I don't know everything, but I know that I don't.

Have a look at these offered on ebay:

120130662276 (steady rest)
230138305604 (cross-slide)
170115483623 (cross-slide)
90115263112 (lathe with cross-slide)
120126245316 (three-way closs-slide)

And if you read Goodrich (circa 1900) you will find extensive detail on the
use of the cross-slide, milling spindle, etcetera on the watchmaker's
lathe.
Post by David
Post by _
Post by David
I hate to sound picky, but that is not a watchmakers lathe, possibly a clock
maker or an instument makers lathe. All the watchmakes lathes I have seen
including mine have no cross slide, turning is more like a wood workers
lathe using a graver against the steel.
Nonsense.
While it is true that a lot of *watchmaking* on a lathe uses a graver as
you describe, the cross-slide, double-cross-slide, and triple-cross-slide
were made and used for many D-bed lathes - as were threading attachements,
milling spindles, grinders, etcetera.
David
2007-06-12 08:19:19 UTC
Permalink
I would like very much to read that that book but sad to say I dont have a
copy.
David
Post by _
Post by David
Shit what a fool I am, after 40 years of watchmaking I did not know that,
wow good job there is someone here who knows everything
David
No, I don't know everything, but I know that I don't.
120130662276 (steady rest)
230138305604 (cross-slide)
170115483623 (cross-slide)
90115263112 (lathe with cross-slide)
120126245316 (three-way closs-slide)
And if you read Goodrich (circa 1900) you will find extensive detail on the
use of the cross-slide, milling spindle, etcetera on the watchmaker's
lathe.
Post by David
Post by _
Post by David
I hate to sound picky, but that is not a watchmakers lathe, possibly a clock
maker or an instument makers lathe. All the watchmakes lathes I have seen
including mine have no cross slide, turning is more like a wood workers
lathe using a graver against the steel.
Nonsense.
While it is true that a lot of *watchmaking* on a lathe uses a graver as
you describe, the cross-slide, double-cross-slide, and
triple-cross-slide
were made and used for many D-bed lathes - as were threading
attachements,
milling spindles, grinders, etcetera.
Trevor Jones
2007-06-12 01:13:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
Shit what a fool I am, after 40 years of watchmaking I did not know that,
wow good job there is someone here who knows everything
David
Geez, David.

You could do to get out more!

Cut back on the caffeine or something. :-)

You DID say that watchmakers lathes did not have slides, right?

Every WW pattern maker that I have ever seen product in catalogs, and
pretty much same for the Geneva pattern lathes, all offered slides. Many
of them offered enough stuff to build a pretty near universal machine
tool out of a watchmakers lathe, by the time you add in milling and
grinding spindles, indexing, milling slides, pivot polishers, and the rest.

Just in case a watchmaker decided to actually make the parts he
needed, rather than just turning out the odd staff.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/watchmaker/

Scroll down the page to see a fairly well equipped watchmakers lathe
in a case, if all you have done is plain hand turning on one.

Levin is still making pretty good money at selling the stuff, though
it looks like they are out of the WW Pattern lathe business these days.
http://levinlathe.com/menu.htm

http://www.lathes.co.uk/levin/ shows the Levin line of accessories for
the WW Pattern machines.

That lathe is an instrument lathe, though, by the looks of it.

The adjustments look to me like the layout used on the Myford 7 Series
lathes. One set of adjusters to adjust the preload and position of the
ball bearing pair, or just the position of a single bearing at the back
of the spindle, the other adjustment pulls the spindle into the cone
bearing socket that is at the front end.

Cheers
Trevor Jones
David
2007-06-12 09:20:02 UTC
Permalink
Well, I have given up the caffeine and I can't argue with the links, they
make most interesting reading, however in my defence it also comes down to
terminology, I (and others) have always known lathes such as shown as
Instument makers lathes, while the more simpler version being called
Watcmakers lathes. I think that they belong to a time when watchmaking lived
up to it's name rather than simple repair work which was more common when I
started, anyway most interesting reading.
Thanks David
Post by Trevor Jones
Post by David
Shit what a fool I am, after 40 years of watchmaking I did not know that,
wow good job there is someone here who knows everything
David
Geez, David.
You could do to get out more!
Cut back on the caffeine or something. :-)
You DID say that watchmakers lathes did not have slides, right?
Every WW pattern maker that I have ever seen product in catalogs, and
pretty much same for the Geneva pattern lathes, all offered slides. Many
of them offered enough stuff to build a pretty near universal machine tool
out of a watchmakers lathe, by the time you add in milling and grinding
spindles, indexing, milling slides, pivot polishers, and the rest.
Just in case a watchmaker decided to actually make the parts he needed,
rather than just turning out the odd staff.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/watchmaker/
Scroll down the page to see a fairly well equipped watchmakers lathe in a
case, if all you have done is plain hand turning on one.
Levin is still making pretty good money at selling the stuff, though it
looks like they are out of the WW Pattern lathe business these days.
http://levinlathe.com/menu.htm
http://www.lathes.co.uk/levin/ shows the Levin line of accessories for
the WW Pattern machines.
That lathe is an instrument lathe, though, by the looks of it.
The adjustments look to me like the layout used on the Myford 7 Series
lathes. One set of adjusters to adjust the preload and position of the
ball bearing pair, or just the position of a single bearing at the back of
the spindle, the other adjustment pulls the spindle into the cone bearing
socket that is at the front end.
Cheers
Trevor Jones
w***@hotmail.com
2007-06-11 01:23:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
I hate to sound picky, but that is not a watchmakers lathe, possibly a clock
maker or an instument makers lathe. All the watchmakes lathes I have seen
including mine have no cross slide, turning is more like a wood workers
lathe using a graver against the steel. Possibly this info may help you
track down the source, try looking at instument makers lathes.
Post by Youra
Hi all.
The folk on alt.holorogy suggested someone here might be able to shed
some light......
Can anyone help with identifying a (Polish?? - the motor says 'made
in Poland') 'Geneva pattern' watchmakers lathe I've recently
http://www.gloubiboulga.org/Lathe/FullLathe.jpg
There's space for two nameplates, but they vanished before it got to
me...
I'm also struggling with adjusting the headstock bearings.
http://www.gloubiboulga.org/Lathe/headstock.jpg
http://www.gloubiboulga.org/Lathe/pulley.jpg
http://www.gloubiboulga.org/Lathe/farend.jpg
The main issue from my point of view - is there a bit (another
bearing??) missing from the left hand end (farend.jpg shows that bit
unscrewed slightly for clarity).
If there is no part missing, then the plain steel washer (second in
from the left in that picture) which is attached to the spindle rubs
against the end of the threaded bearing retainer (the bronze thread
just visible to the right) - this is a tiny bearing surface, and it
makes me very nervous.
On other lathes (my Lorch for example) this is a proper tapered
(plain) thrust bearing, rather than this tiny thing. For some scale,
the threaded portion of the bronze bearing retainer visible extends
approx 1.1mm out from the nut on the far right.
There is a ball bearing thrust race within the left hand end of the
pulley and adjusting that acts to tighten this very small bearing
surface, making matters worse.....
Any ideas how I might improve matters at that end of the headstock ?
Thanks,
Youra.
My swiss lathe has cross slide and parallel slide. And yes, you can
get attachments for watchmaking lathes the price of which far outweigh
the price of the lathe alone.

Wolfgang.
David
2007-06-11 10:01:28 UTC
Permalink
Wolfgang, you have the correct answer, I stick by what I said, the lathe
pictured is not a watchmakers lathe, however attachments can be obtained to
convert most instument makers lathes for watchmaking, Nowadays turning
balance staffs and the like is almost a dead art, when I started in the 60s
it was all but finished then however I did do quite a lot on old watches, at
one time it was common practice. I wonder how many "battery fitters" would
even know what a lathe looked like.
David
Post by w***@hotmail.com
Post by David
I hate to sound picky, but that is not a watchmakers lathe, possibly a clock
maker or an instument makers lathe. All the watchmakes lathes I have seen
including mine have no cross slide, turning is more like a wood workers
lathe using a graver against the steel. Possibly this info may help you
track down the source, try looking at instument makers lathes.
David (not trying to be a smart arse)"Youra"
Post by Youra
Hi all.
The folk on alt.holorogy suggested someone here might be able to shed
some light......
Can anyone help with identifying a (Polish?? - the motor says 'made
in Poland') 'Geneva pattern' watchmakers lathe I've recently
http://www.gloubiboulga.org/Lathe/FullLathe.jpg
There's space for two nameplates, but they vanished before it got to
me...
I'm also struggling with adjusting the headstock bearings.
http://www.gloubiboulga.org/Lathe/headstock.jpg
http://www.gloubiboulga.org/Lathe/pulley.jpg
http://www.gloubiboulga.org/Lathe/farend.jpg
The main issue from my point of view - is there a bit (another
bearing??) missing from the left hand end (farend.jpg shows that bit
unscrewed slightly for clarity).
If there is no part missing, then the plain steel washer (second in
from the left in that picture) which is attached to the spindle rubs
against the end of the threaded bearing retainer (the bronze thread
just visible to the right) - this is a tiny bearing surface, and it
makes me very nervous.
On other lathes (my Lorch for example) this is a proper tapered
(plain) thrust bearing, rather than this tiny thing. For some scale,
the threaded portion of the bronze bearing retainer visible extends
approx 1.1mm out from the nut on the far right.
There is a ball bearing thrust race within the left hand end of the
pulley and adjusting that acts to tighten this very small bearing
surface, making matters worse.....
Any ideas how I might improve matters at that end of the headstock ?
Thanks,
Youra.
My swiss lathe has cross slide and parallel slide. And yes, you can
get attachments for watchmaking lathes the price of which far outweigh
the price of the lathe alone.
Wolfgang.
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