Discussion:
gauge railway workshop to yard
(too old to reply)
Richard Smith
2024-06-07 21:10:08 UTC
Permalink
Hello all

Yup really niche question this.

Friend re-concreting his workshop floor, and intends to lay
mine-railway tracks in it. Which runs out into the yard and enables
machines which make a mess to be wheeled-out from stored safe and dry
in the workshop to working some distance away given associated dust
when running.

Two gauges seem to be in use here - 18inch and 2ft (24inch)
(* 18 25.4) ;; 457.2 ;; 457 mm gauge
(* 24 25.4) ;; 609.5999999999999 ;; 610 mm gauge

Wheels & wagons etc available both gauges.
Though 18inch maybe more common in the very compact tin mines (the
lodes are narrow).

Anyone know of an argument to choose one gauge over another?

I'd have thought maybe the smaller gauge as seems big enough for
smallish hammer-mill, etc.; takes less space; and can have tighter
corners outside the workshop.

What experience does anyone have suggesting best choice?

Regards,
Rich S
Bob La Londe
2024-06-07 22:26:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Smith
Hello all
Yup really niche question this.
Friend re-concreting his workshop floor, and intends to lay
mine-railway tracks in it. Which runs out into the yard and enables
machines which make a mess to be wheeled-out from stored safe and dry
in the workshop to working some distance away given associated dust
when running.
Two gauges seem to be in use here - 18inch and 2ft (24inch)
(* 18 25.4) ;; 457.2 ;; 457 mm gauge
(* 24 25.4) ;; 609.5999999999999 ;; 610 mm gauge
Wheels & wagons etc available both gauges.
Though 18inch maybe more common in the very compact tin mines (the
lodes are narrow).
Anyone know of an argument to choose one gauge over another?
I'd have thought maybe the smaller gauge as seems big enough for
smallish hammer-mill, etc.; takes less space; and can have tighter
corners outside the workshop.
What experience does anyone have suggesting best choice?
Regards,
Rich S
Wider base is more stable. Maybe if the equipment has drop legs for
stability when in use the track width is less of an issue.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jim Wilkins
2024-06-07 23:23:58 UTC
Permalink
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:v401dr$285ju$***@dont-email.me...

On 6/7/2024 2:10 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
...

Wider base is more stable. Maybe if the equipment has drop legs for
stability when in use the track width is less of an issue.
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

-------------------------------

I put one of these fold-away telescoping legs under the beam of my log
splitter to adjust it to a comfortable working height yet not be in the way
(much) when the beam is on the ground to roll very heavy wet wood onto it.
https://www.amazon.com/Trailer-Stabilizer-Leveling-Folding-Telescoping/dp/B09NLJGFJH

I think it's a good candidate for an industrial-strength drop leg at a
consumer price.
Jim Wilkins
2024-06-07 23:06:48 UTC
Permalink
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

Hello all

Yup really niche question this.

Friend re-concreting his workshop floor, and intends to lay
mine-railway tracks in it. Which runs out into the yard and enables
machines which make a mess to be wheeled-out from stored safe and dry
in the workshop to working some distance away given associated dust
when running.

Two gauges seem to be in use here - 18inch and 2ft (24inch)
(* 18 25.4) ;; 457.2 ;; 457 mm gauge
(* 24 25.4) ;; 609.5999999999999 ;; 610 mm gauge

Wheels & wagons etc available both gauges.
Though 18inch maybe more common in the very compact tin mines (the
lodes are narrow).

Anyone know of an argument to choose one gauge over another?

I'd have thought maybe the smaller gauge as seems big enough for
smallish hammer-mill, etc.; takes less space; and can have tighter
corners outside the workshop.

What experience does anyone have suggesting best choice?

Regards,
Rich S

-------------------------------------
Other than my sawmill and gantry hoist much of my machinery is on rubber
shod casters, not rails, to be rolled into the asphalt driveway or even the
grass. I suggest the widest available track gauge to reduce the chance of an
upset, as when pushing a heavy plank through a table saw, and some sort of
parking brake. I replaced the casters on my 4x6" bandsaw with larger wheels
outside the base.

Does he have space for a switching yard, or a travelling overhead hoist to
load them on and off the rails?

In theatre construction I learned ways to put heavy scenery on temporary
wheels. The simplest is to hinge a board with the casters mounted on one
side to opposing sides of the base . You lift a side and flip the caster
board in or out with a toe. With the casters folded in the object sits flat
and immobile on the floor. If it's hard to grasp and lift the caster boards
can be hinged under the base and lowered to lift and move the load by
stepping on and bracing the outer end. Perhaps the most capable is 3 or 4
telescoping trailer tongue jacks as crank-down landing gear. Though fairly
expensive they can be moved between machines. I move some items that weight
several hundredweight by having wheels on one end and a trailer coupler on
the other.

https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/79018/10002/-1?gad_source=1
They are easy to make, mine has the steel tube handle from a broken snow
shovel.

Rails and ties/sleepers such as on my sawmill are a nuisance when walking
around a machine and when sweeping up swarf.
Richard Smith
2024-06-08 07:19:39 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for replies.
You'd probably timber the ends of a wagon - timber between ground and
frame of wagon.
To be honest, gauge will come down to what is available.

The ease of moving things on steel-rail wagons...
In the hobby mine I've experienced you can easily push several hundred
kilos then the wagon - sometimes much of a tonne.
If you wanted to use the workshop in no reference to the machines you
could easily push them outside for the time being.

I was serendipetously casting for anything I hadn't thought of.

As a kid there were still flourspar mines around - one had an adit
access with probably 18inch gauge track and a battery electric loco - as
I remember. Coming across it when they were working. How could I have
been there in a weekday as a school kid... Else they were working
overtime on a Saturday morning.
A brickworks had a little railway which went for miles getting clay.
Could see lines. Still ran the WW1 supply railway equipment, so would
be 2ft gauge - think they were called "Simplexes" - little petrol /
gasoline motor.

I was one of those kids lost on this "interest" - compensation was as
reached upper teenage, realised I had a map and timescale of the
industrialisation of the world - rather useful :-)
Richard Smith
2024-06-08 07:31:41 UTC
Permalink
While on the topic - if you were renewing railway track in a mine,
expedience the only concern - what would you use?
The low rolling resistance and being able to simply push wagons to a
tonne weight along levels you cannot stick your elbow out in is
fundamentally advantageous.
Saw on a US website that still sell rails for mine railways.
For infrequent hobby use you would use?
Access into mine limited - no adit (horizontal) access nor sloping
decline - is shaft only.
Wondered whether you could lower flat bar (rectangular section) down the
shaft in long lengths and weld to steel "ties" to make a functioning
railway (not going to need expansion joints down there - not many frosts
and not much "solar gain" on heatwave days!).
Saw on a video a coal mine in Pakistan where they use angle-iron for
rails - shows rope-worked decline the wagons come to surface along.
Which I take it is cost-justified?
There are points / switches - cannot have double-flanged wheels to
self-stabilise track, for what it's worth... And yes the tracks do
snake around with curves in following the lodes.
Jim Wilkins
2024-06-08 12:17:50 UTC
Permalink
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

While on the topic - if you were renewing railway track in a mine,
expedience the only concern - what would you use?
The low rolling resistance and being able to simply push wagons to a
tonne weight along levels you cannot stick your elbow out in is
fundamentally advantageous.
Saw on a US website that still sell rails for mine railways.
For infrequent hobby use you would use?
Access into mine limited - no adit (horizontal) access nor sloping
decline - is shaft only.
Wondered whether you could lower flat bar (rectangular section) down the
shaft in long lengths and weld to steel "ties" to make a functioning
railway (not going to need expansion joints down there - not many frosts
and not much "solar gain" on heatwave days!).
Saw on a video a coal mine in Pakistan where they use angle-iron for
rails - shows rope-worked decline the wagons come to surface along.
Which I take it is cost-justified?
There are points / switches - cannot have double-flanged wheels to
self-stabilise track, for what it's worth... And yes the tracks do
snake around with curves in following the lodes.
--------------------------------
Angle iron track appears to be common on home made sawmills with rolling
bandsaw heads. The V grooved wheels can be turned on a lathe. Mine uses 3" C
channel for track because it was available cheaply from a surplus store, as
dismantled pallet racks. Since I have machine tools I don't need to seek
perfect solutions to problems, I can make what's needed to adapt to what's
available.

All connections are bolted on at least one side rather than welded to ease
disassembly and keep splice fittings small enough to fit in a milling
machine vise. After drilling a splice plate's bolt pattern accurately on the
mill I clamp it to the aligned rails outdoors on sawhorses and match-drill
the holes into the rails, usually tapping them to minimize fiddling with
small fasteners in awkward places, like next to wherever huge logs came to
rest. The bolts are turned to a thread root diameter pilot on the ends to
help align and start them with one free hand.

I found it easier on the back and knees to assemble several track section
(24') on sawhorses and lower them into place with a portable folding tripod
hoist. The ties have leveling screws at the ends to accommodate uneven
ground and the hoist helps to align and level the track before screwing the
levelers down to contact.

Being a sawmill there are no sideways curves and I'm careful to eliminate
vertical ones, so I can't help there. The logs rest on supports that are
separate from the carriage track.

I used 3/8" bolts wherever possible so I need to carry only one size wrench
in my pocket.

If you use rope or cable to pull the carts snatch blocks like this are very
useful, as they can be placed on or taken off an already tensioned line as
needed. Braided cotton rope is easier on the hands than synthetic or manila.
https://www.myteeproducts.com/recovery-winch-snatch-blocks.html?fee=1&fep=8173&attId=134&attVal=4924&gad_source=1
Jim Wilkins
2024-06-08 12:53:14 UTC
Permalink
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...
...
Saw on a video a coal mine in Pakistan where they use angle-iron for
rails - shows rope-worked decline the wagons come to surface along.
Which I take it is cost-justified?
...

---------------------------------
I've been changing from steel to synthetic winch cable which has better
handling properties, mainly no sharp broken ends, also it isn't stiff and
springy and stays in place on the winch spool.

Strong rope is available in nylon which stretches a lot and absorbs shocks,
and polyester which doesn't. The breaking strengths are similar. In
mountaineering they are called Dynamic and Static. For most purposes I
prefer braided polyester when I can find it.

This sliding/locking knot and the cord suitable for it are very useful.
https://www.animatedknots.com/prusik-knot
Jim Wilkins
2024-06-08 13:48:06 UTC
Permalink
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

For infrequent hobby use you would use?
------------------------
Major considerations for me were covered compact storage of 8' and 10'
lengths and being able to hand carry every component of the sawmill and
overhead gantry(s) and assemble them anywhere on my hilly, wooded property
without a helper. These meant that the sawmill track rails aren't
permanently attached to the cross ties and the two 16' gantry hoist tracks
are in four 8' sections of C channel spliced together, the equivalent W
section beam being too heavy to lift and move off-road. Except for the 10'
tripods of 2" conduit and the square tube sawmill wheel frame the material
was scrap that I found by accident and decided on the spot could be useful
somehow, details TBD.
Jim Wilkins
2024-06-08 16:59:33 UTC
Permalink
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

While on the topic - if you were renewing railway track in a mine,
expedience the only concern - what would you use?

------------------------
First, the Internet.
http://www.ingr.co.uk/equip_sale.html
Richard Smith
2024-06-09 19:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Smith
renewing railway track in a mine,
expedience the only concern - what would you use?
------------------------
First, the Internet.
http://www.ingr.co.uk/equip_sale.html
Good point!
Bob La Londe
2024-06-08 21:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Smith
While on the topic - if you were renewing railway track in a mine,
expedience the only concern - what would you use?
The low rolling resistance and being able to simply push wagons to a
tonne weight along levels you cannot stick your elbow out in is
fundamentally advantageous.
Saw on a US website that still sell rails for mine railways.
For infrequent hobby use you would use?
Access into mine limited - no adit (horizontal) access nor sloping
decline - is shaft only.
Wondered whether you could lower flat bar (rectangular section) down the
shaft in long lengths and weld to steel "ties" to make a functioning
railway (not going to need expansion joints down there - not many frosts
and not much "solar gain" on heatwave days!).
Saw on a video a coal mine in Pakistan where they use angle-iron for
rails - shows rope-worked decline the wagons come to surface along.
Which I take it is cost-justified?
There are points / switches - cannot have double-flanged wheels to
self-stabilise track, for what it's worth... And yes the tracks do
snake around with curves in following the lodes.
Angle / v-groove is common for rolling gates too.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jim Wilkins
2024-06-08 22:25:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Smith
While on the topic - if you were renewing railway track in a mine,
expedience the only concern - what would you use?
Angle / v-groove is common for rolling gates too.
Bob La Londe

----------------------------
This appears able to calculate the moment of inertia of rotated angle stock,
to figure the sag between sleepers.
https://clearcalcs.com/freetools/free-moment-of-inertia-calculator/us
Richard Smith
2024-06-23 19:38:32 UTC
Permalink
Gauges of mine railways - I've found - with a tape-measure:
18inch
22inch / 1ft 10inch
24inch / 2ft

Didn't know of 22inch gauge before - find that is/was also the gauge of
the railway around the Guinness brewery in Dublin, Ireland

Metric equivalent gauges which seem to exist elsewhere
18inch <=> 460mm
22inch <=> 560mm
24inch <=> 600mm

So, yes, didn't know of those.
A mine I am "volunteered to" has 18inch.
Friend I was thinking of when asking here - it did come down to what
he's managed to blag, and that is the 22inch gauge.

Okay - well, that's a more complex picture than I knew about.

Sorry if asked this already - if you wanted to lay line cheaply - you'd
go with flat-bar on its thin edge, welded to any steel you could find as
ties, set to gauge and with curvature, in-situ? Bend the more
"restricted" - by clearance to things around, etc.? - first, and use a
gauging guide to set the other rail relative to it and weld-off to the
ties ("sleepers" in UK-speak) ?
Not sure how going to get a welding machine (electric) powered-up down
the mine, though. No compressed-air-powered welding machine as I know
of... (?!).
(*
90 ;; Amps
20 ;; Volts
) ;; 1800
With 2.5mm 7018 you'd need 1.8kW - call it 2kW.

I commented as a question - down a mine you wouldn't need expansion
joints due to the near constancy of temperature?
Something like 100m of track might benefit from being re-laid anew.

Regards,
Rich S
Jim Wilkins
2024-06-23 23:20:38 UTC
Permalink
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

Sorry if asked this already - if you wanted to lay line cheaply - you'd
go with flat-bar on its thin edge, welded to any steel you could find as
ties, set to gauge and with curvature, in-situ? Bend the more
"restricted" - by clearance to things around, etc.? - first, and use a
gauging guide to set the other rail relative to it and weld-off to the
ties ("sleepers" in UK-speak) ?
Not sure how going to get a welding machine (electric) powered-up down
the mine, though. No compressed-air-powered welding machine as I know
of... (?!).
(*
90 ;; Amps
20 ;; Volts
) ;; 1800
With 2.5mm 7018 you'd need 1.8kW - call it 2kW.

I commented as a question - down a mine you wouldn't need expansion
joints due to the near constancy of temperature?
Something like 100m of track might benefit from being re-laid anew.

Regards,
Rich S

----------------------------------
My sawmill track rails are 3" x 4.2 Lbs/ft channel iron, which bends
relatively easily in the weak direction without twisting like angle iron and
can be lagged or bolted down through the lower flange. I bought it as scrap
pallet rack, bandsawed off the end plates that had fastened it to the
columns, and reused them as splices. Two 8' sections bolted together might
support a centered one ton log, though the gantry track for that is double
4" channel. An upright strip alone may be forced to twist outward and buckle
between its supports, even if Ixx is adequate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_railway_track
A metal wear strip over hardwood might be the cheapest that will last in
light service, and historically appropriate. I think in terms of custom
hardwood shapes because I'm sawing oak into 6" x 6" beams or whatever I
want, weather permitting - right now there's a lightning and tornado watch.
Angle or tee iron can be bolted to sleepers in the mine to avoid welding and
ease repair or removal; my luck would be to find just what I originally
wanted right after completing the quickie version, which I then write off as
bait.
Jim Wilkins
2024-06-24 13:08:41 UTC
Permalink
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

A mine I am "volunteered to" has 18inch.
Friend I was thinking of when asking here - it did come down to what
he's managed to blag, and that is the 22inch gauge.
------------------------

My personal observation is that most US amateur collectors of heavy iron
prefer muscle cars and/or smaller construction equipment to garden railways,
though several tourist railways with reclaimed running gear operate. At
least three people on this suburban residential street have tractors with
loader buckets, and I built a hydraulic bucket attachment for mine to clear
snow.

Residential tractors:
https://www.kubotausa.com/tractors?utm_source=google&utm_campaign=T1_Res&utm_medium=ppc&gad_source=1
Jim Wilkins
2024-06-26 15:23:02 UTC
Permalink
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

Friend I was thinking of when asking here - it did come down to what
he's managed to blag, and that is the 22inch gauge.

----------------------
https://www.theliverpudlian.com/post/scouse-slang-a-list-of-18-essential-scouse-slang-words-phrases-used-in-the-liverpool-city-region
Richard Smith
2024-06-30 09:09:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Smith
Friend I was thinking of when asking here - it did come down to what
he's managed to blag, and that is the 22inch gauge.
----------------------
https://www.theliverpudlian.com/post/scouse-slang-a-list-of-18-essential-scouse-slang-words-phrases-used-in-the-liverpool-city-region
Scousers :-)

Jim Wilkins
2024-06-10 02:52:07 UTC
Permalink
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

Hello all

Yup really niche question this.

Friend re-concreting his workshop floor, and intends to lay
mine-railway tracks in it. Which runs out into the yard and enables
machines which make a mess to be wheeled-out from stored safe and dry
in the workshop to working some distance away given associated dust
when running....
Anyone know of an argument to choose one gauge over another?
-------------------------------

After thinking about it more, I'd much rather have a level paved walkway
wide enough to allow rotating machines for long stock clearance or putting
cut marks in sunlight and letting one pass another, inside and out. Indoors
machines on swivel casters can be pushed sideways against each other, like
my welding equipment. My basement (cellar) is at ground level in front and I
roll the equipment into the driveway to make sparks or sawdust. (Not "and")

Currently I'm cutting 6"x6"x16' oak beams that are difficult to maneuver
even outside in the yard, around the house and up the hill into the woods to
store them under cover. I suppose the best answer depends somewhat on the
size/weight of his equipment (hammer-mill?) and what he makes, for me the
longest steel assembly to be hoisted, drilled and handled is the 24' sawmill
track. The heavyweight chip makers are the lathe and mill which are top
heavy and spread sharp metal chips I don't really want scattered outdoors.
"Mice" such as these are available to roll seriously heavy industrial
machinery:
https://www.ronmillsandcompany.com/products/mighty_mouse/

Heavy duty wheels of custom width can be made from large pipe tires and
small pipe hubs, bored smooth and to size (after welding the spokes) for
needle bearings cut from gas welding rod. I made stainless ones for the
platform stacker that shares a damp dirt shed floor with the tractor.

A shop crane can become a self-loading trailer by putting planks to support
the load across the legs and a trailer coupler on the mast end. Mine lifts
2000 Lbs and has larger added wheels to roll on dirt. One might be the
simplest way to move the hammer mill or anything similar you might be
tempted to acquire.

The peril of having narrow gauge tracks:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-54118244
Richard Smith
2024-06-10 07:37:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Smith
Hello all
Yup really niche question this.
Friend re-concreting his workshop floor, and intends to lay
mine-railway tracks in it. Which runs out into the yard and enables
machines which make a mess to be wheeled-out from stored safe and dry
in the workshop to working some distance away given associated dust
when running....
Anyone know of an argument to choose one gauge over another?
-------------------------------
After thinking about it more, I'd much rather have a level paved
walkway wide enough to allow rotating machines for long stock
clearance or putting cut marks in sunlight and letting one pass
another, inside and out. Indoors machines on swivel casters can be
pushed sideways against each other, like my welding equipment. My
basement (cellar) is at ground level in front and I roll the equipment
into the driveway to make sparks or sawdust. (Not "and")
Currently I'm cutting 6"x6"x16' oak beams that are difficult to
maneuver even outside in the yard, around the house and up the hill
into the woods to store them under cover. I suppose the best answer
depends somewhat on the size/weight of his equipment (hammer-mill?)
and what he makes, for me the longest steel assembly to be hoisted,
drilled and handled is the 24' sawmill track. The heavyweight chip
makers are the lathe and mill which are top heavy and spread sharp
metal chips I don't really want scattered outdoors. "Mice" such as
https://www.ronmillsandcompany.com/products/mighty_mouse/
Heavy duty wheels of custom width can be made from large pipe tires
and small pipe hubs, bored smooth and to size (after welding the
spokes) for needle bearings cut from gas welding rod. I made stainless
ones for the platform stacker that shares a damp dirt shed floor with
the tractor.
A shop crane can become a self-loading trailer by putting planks to
support the load across the legs and a trailer coupler on the mast
end. Mine lifts 2000 Lbs and has larger added wheels to roll on
dirt. One might be the simplest way to move the hammer mill or
anything similar you might be tempted to acquire.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-54118244
Advantage of railway tracks over castors/wheels is can go far beyond the
shed without big civils - tonnes of concrete making level roads, etc. ?

Hammer mill 15HP drive and definitely "industrial".

There is left-over mine-gauge equipment seeking a good home here, and
maybe some nostalgia in actually having a bit of line.

This is driven by my wanting to actually experience the realities of
mineral processing.
Start with a heap of "rocks" and end up with some metallic minerals.
I'm getting better at spotting things.
Beach walk Saturday - saw some "dirty" quartz and took samples to mine
museum. Yes is mineralised - lot of iron. Someone guessed where it had
come from, saying there was a drift mine off the beach (saw it - thought
it was a drainage adit) which got about 50 tonnes of lead (?) before being
abandoned.
Some folk have piles of ore where can process some every now-and-again.

Red River flowing clear these days despite South Crofty pumping-out -
treat the water coming out of the mine to essentially drinking water
grade, which dilutes down what's going into the adit from other mines.
Great County Adit still runs very "ironey" - comes out near where I
live.

Volunteering at mine museum - they want to make some replicas as best
possible given photos of equipment around the headframe. Given they are
putting up a conserved timber headframe at the museum - last one used in
Cornwall. The cage for the main shaft, etc.

Best wishes to all,
Rich Smith
Leon Fisk
2024-06-10 12:30:46 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 08:37:50 +0100
Richard Smith <***@void.com> wrote:

<snip>
Post by Richard Smith
This is driven by my wanting to actually experience the realities of
mineral processing.
Start with a heap of "rocks" and end up with some metallic minerals.
I'm getting better at spotting things.
A very different "mining" method you may find of interest :)

https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/phytomining-harvesting-metal-through-plants/
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI
Jim Wilkins
2024-06-10 16:08:05 UTC
Permalink
"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:v46rlm$ekma$***@dont-email.me...

A very different "mining" method you may find of interest :)

https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/phytomining-harvesting-metal-through-plants/

Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

---------------------------------

Some of the firewood I burn has so much mineralization in the bark that it
remains as a grey shell after the wood is gone.
Richard Smith
2024-06-12 07:07:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leon Fisk
On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 08:37:50 +0100
<snip>
Post by Richard Smith
This is driven by my wanting to actually experience the realities of
mineral processing.
Start with a heap of "rocks" and end up with some metallic minerals.
I'm getting better at spotting things.
A very different "mining" method you may find of interest :)
https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/phytomining-harvesting-metal-through-plants/
Makes sense to develop this.
Heard of plants which absorb so much arsenic that logic says try to
work-out what advantage they could be getting.

If I recall, in history - eg. Roman times? - substances like iodine (?)
were obtained from gathering, drying and burning seaweed - so in-essence
"phytomining"

Here in Cornwall there area areas of mine tailings where nothing has
grown in more than 150 years

http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/240405_aspr/240403_ode_arsenopyrite.html
"Ode to Arsenopyrite"

Best wishes,
Rich S
Jim Wilkins
2024-06-12 11:46:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leon Fisk
A very different "mining" method you may find of interest :)
https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/phytomining-harvesting-metal-through-plants/
Makes sense to develop this.
Heard of plants which absorb so much arsenic that logic says try to
work-out what advantage they could be getting.

------------------------------------
A possible explanation is that they can't tell Arsenic from Phosphorus, but
have evolved to tolerate it.
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1197258
"However, given the similarities of As and P—and by analogy with trace
element substitutions—we hypothesized that AsO43– could specifically
substitute for PO43– in an organism possessing mechanisms to cope with the
inherent instability of AsO43– compounds.."

Much heavy metal and radioactivity poisoning is similar, for instance
Strontium is similar enough to Calcium to make radioactive Strontium-90
easily absorbed and incorporated into bones etc. They are toxic because at
some point they don't act similarly enough to the lower weight atom they
were mistaken for.

The Romans also acquired Sodium Carbonate (soda ash) for glass making from
saltwort plants. It could have made soap for them, if not for their hard
water, so they used the ammonia in fermented urine to wash laundry. It was
their strongest stable and soluble alkali, just as vinegar was their
strongest acid. Chemistry couldn't advance until stronger acids were
discovered. The blowpipe articles I mentioned describe how it extracts many
metals.

My degree is in Chemistry, though the Vietnam draft kept me from advancing
beyond a B.S., the EPA killed job prospects and I found I liked the computer
electronics I learned in the Army better and jobs were plentiful. Since the
courses include much Calculus and Physics it's a good general science degree
that prepares one to at least understand the explanations in any technical
field.

The first place I found work after the Army built custom industrial
production test equipment, which required knowing both how to address the
mainly electrical / electronic issues as well as how to personally
fabricate, plumb and wire the machine, the small company was competitive
because it was so lean and fast. They couldn't simply hire that mix of
theoretical and practical skills so they taught me the construction
techniques and I learned the rapidly evolving integrated electronics of the
1970's from manufacturers' literature.
Jim Wilkins
2024-06-12 12:06:45 UTC
Permalink
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

Here in Cornwall there area areas of mine tailings where nothing has
grown in more than 150 years

-------------------------------

https://theconversation.com/what-mining-oil-and-gas-industries-can-learn-from-sudbury-the-city-that-went-from-major-polluter-to-thriving-environment-165595
Jim Wilkins
2024-06-10 14:05:49 UTC
Permalink
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <***@gmail.com> writes:
......

Advantage of railway tracks over castors/wheels is can go far beyond the
shed without big civils - tonnes of concrete making level roads, etc. ?

Hammer mill 15HP drive and definitely "industrial".

There is left-over mine-gauge equipment seeking a good home here, and
maybe some nostalgia in actually having a bit of line.

----------------------------
I slanted my response toward having many pieces of swarf generating
equipment to move outdoors, possibly simultaneously, such as a table or
radial arm saw, thickness planer, edge jointer and bandsaw. If the hammer
mill is the only one I see the advantage of the track. I still think that if
permanent it's an obstruction above ground and a maintenance issue if sunk
in level like a road crossing. The ground here is compacted glacial till
with high bearing strength that supports heavy loads on rigid wheels pretty
well without needing paved paths. My wheeled equipment wouldn't do as well
on the usual softer lawn topsoil.

I attached the lower flange of the sawmill track to the sleepers with lag
screws and washers to make disassembly fast and easy. The track is assembled
on sawhorses because the joint bolt holes need precise alignment and the
sleepers can be installed from below, and then lowered with a tripod hoist,
but disassembled in place with a socket on an extension and a battery drill
or tee handle. My DIY 'garden' shed is tall enough inside to store the 8'
track sections in a compact bundle upright in a corner. It's taxed on square
footage, not height or volume.

I think the same scheme would work with longer track in sections because
supporting some of the weight with the hoist should allow moving an end into
alignment with one hand and starting the bolts with the other. The 3"
channel with bolted splices is stiff enough to hang a 24' length from the
center as long as the sleepers and sling keep the channel upright, but not
if it's allowed to turn sideways.

My sleepers are 8' apart, at the joints and ends, because the saw carriage
isn't that heavy and the logs are supported separately. Closer ones for a
heavier load could be slid into place with the partly assembled track
hoisted slightly. The folding tripods with lever chain hoists enable many
heavy tasks.

During WW1 the BEF laid track in trenches under slit turf during the night
and folded the turf back in place before dawn, so heavy long range railway
artillery could be moved close to the front at night without its
emplacements being photographed and accurately mapped as targets for
counterbattery fire by the Germans.

As to your other post, these are my snatch blocks. They differ from regular
pulleys in that they can be opened and placed over the line anywhere instead
of threaded from the end, not possible with attached hooks. For towing a
vehicle they may need chain shackles to connect to webbing straps unless the
vehicle has tow or tiedown hooks/loops, like vehicles shipped overseas.
https://www.championpowerequipment.com/product/c18003-8000-lb-snatch-block/

I turn logs on the sawmill by suspending them near the CG with a rope sling
run through a snatch block. The overhead gantry hoist has been a good
substitute for hydraulic log lifters and turners.

The design is simple enough to make from stainless with a lathe and drill
press for permanent outdoor use, or these can be converted into snatch
blocks by drilling out the hole crimp.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-1-2-in-Zinc-Plated-Rigid-Single-Pulley-44144/205887587

Lighter weight snatch blocks are also available as mountaineering rescue
equipment. I hang two by webbing loops at the top of an extension ladder so
I can position the top end and tighten the guy ropes from the bottom of the
ladder. With the top end secured from sliding I can move the feet and
reposition the top in two separate less awkward operations.

My minimalist vehicle extraction equipment is a tow rope/strap, a folding
Army shovel and a camping wood saw that can cut a small dead tree trunk to
use as a lever. Also a hatchet, but the saw is more useful. Rocks leaned
against a tire may roll into the pit when the axle is levered up. The lever
may be able to pull the tow strap with its end jammed into the ground. When
motorcycle camping I substituted a sturdy trowel (tent peg, kickstand foot,
fire extinguisher). I've retrieved a street motorcycle from a
softer-than-expected spot by sawing sticks into caterpillar tracks to roll
on.

A recip saw blade reshaped to cross-cut with a triangular file can become a
very compact emergency saw. I made a sheath that doubles as its handle.
While I was designing a custom dynamic memory controller IC at the vendor's
facility the workstation failed, and the replacement power supply wouldn't
fit its slot until I trimmed it with this home made saw. The high and the
low of technology!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VLSI_Technology
Jim Wilkins
2024-06-10 17:16:09 UTC
Permalink
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

This is driven by my wanting to actually experience the realities of
mineral processing.
Start with a heap of "rocks" and end up with some metallic minerals.
I'm getting better at spotting things.
----------------------------

Small ore samples can be analyzed and smelted to metal with little more than
a candle, jet of breath air and charcoal.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/32974/32974-h/32974-h.htm

https://www.911metallurgist.com/blog/blowpipe-analysis-for-testing-minerals

To blow continuously you close the back of your throat and blow with your
cheeks while inhaling rapidly through your nose. The platinum wire ($1.25 in
1965) and blowpipe were on the bookstore purchase list for freshman
university chemistry students. Perhaps they still are. Cobalt glass blocks
the intense yellow of Sodium so you can see what else is there.

I also used the blowpipe and a candle to make tiny glass animals for my
girlfriend. Fragments of the broken milk glass lamp globe in the dorm
bathroom became speckled like a fawn when overheated.

Wet chemical analysis is somewhat more definitive and thorough, but it
requires chemicals no longer easily available, and hazardous waste disposal.
The simpler Qualitative analysis shows what's there, the more involved
Quantitative analysis measures how much, on a sensitive weighing scale.

This very nice sighting compass was required for the agricultural students.
https://www.suunto.com/Products/Compasses/Suunto-KB-14/Suunto-KB-14360R1/

I bought one at the asking price from a student who didn't expect to ever
need it again. Looking into the end you see the magnified degree scale and a
vertical reference line that can be made to extend up over the distant
target as well. The liquid damping appeared good enough for marine use on
the calm day I tried it.
Leon Fisk
2024-06-10 18:36:37 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 13:16:09 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
Post by Jim Wilkins
This very nice sighting compass was required for the agricultural students.
https://www.suunto.com/Products/Compasses/Suunto-KB-14/Suunto-KB-14360R1/
Those are nice! I have their Duo with Clinometer added on. Sadly the
Clinometer is a bit sticky and I didn't figure out the flaw till it
was too late to return it. Compass works great. They even include a
1/4x20 thread for mounting them on tripods.

The Silva Ranger Compass works quite well too :)

https://www.amazon.com/Silva-Advanced-Compass-Distance-Lanyard/dp/B079Y5CFPR/
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI
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