boat propulsion - miniature computer-controlled steam plant?

[Richard Smith]

Hello all

I must leave this alone - but here's a thought which jumped to me.

Started on path of learning "embedded electronic devices".
Typically boards about 50mm square with inputs, outputs and a
microprocessor - as would be used to control eg. a washing-machine.

The thought must occur to an "on the spectrum" mind - for a boat -
eg. auxiliary power for a sailing yacht...
because you have the sea as a "cold-well temperature" to condense the
working fluid steam back to water to go back through the cycle:

an embedded electronic control device would make possible a
"flash-steam" turbine power unit.

It could sense temperature at the output of the "helix of tube" boiler
with a thermocouple, the power draw on the machine, and instruct
electric pumps for liquid fuel and the water from the condenser.

(carnot-cycle-eff
(my-tc2k 800) ;; 1073.15
(my-tc2k 70) ;; 343.15
) ;; 0.6802404137352653

The potential efficiency of the device is around 68%.

You would have fuel-flexibility - "diesel", heating oil, etc.

The drive would have to be electric (?), seeing as the turbine would
spin at 10's / 100's of thousands of revs-per-minute.

The thing would hopefully be nearly silent, vibration-free and small.
You'll be knowing - on a sailing yacht if you have to go over to
"auxiliary power"
(the wind is low or you want a heading in the "no go zone" in the
90degree included angle about the bow 45deg Port to 45deg Starboard)
the sound and rumble of a diesel engine in the confined small boat is
"sub-optimal".

In general steam turbine ships have smaller machinery, can be
lighter-built because there isn't the vibration of a "pounding" diesel
- but up until now have a fuel-consumption penalty compared to a
marine long-stroke diesel (which exceeds 50% efficiency)
Thinking eg. container-ships going around the world at 25knots.

I am taking it that with stainless steel boiler tube and no
consequence if it "lets go" - you put the "boiler" in a steel tube and
if it "lets go" the tiny amount of steam in a flash-boiler "shoots"
over the stern - probably at the water.
So worked on the idea of 800C at the boiler output.

To start the thing you'd crank a manual handle which blows air and
pumps water and fuel-oil in reasonble ratio until the steam-turbine
spins and generates electricity the auxiliaries can start drawing-on
under computer-control.

It is a nice thought that if you want to voyage when the wind isn't
blowing that voyage is as silent as sailing.

A "motor-boat" with such device is a nice thought, and an easier start
as a test rig.

Any comments?

This must be obvious.
Has been done already?

I must absolutely leave this alone - but I had to ask if this is
already known.

Rich Smith

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

Hello all

I must leave this alone - but here's a thought which jumped to me.

Started on path of learning "embedded electronic devices".
Typically boards about 50mm square with inputs, outputs and a
microprocessor - as would be used to control eg. a washing-machine.

The thought must occur to an "on the spectrum" mind - for a boat -
eg. auxiliary power for a sailing yacht...
because you have the sea as a "cold-well temperature" to condense the
working fluid steam back to water to go back through the cycle:

an embedded electronic control device would make possible a
"flash-steam" turbine power unit.

It could sense temperature at the output of the "helix of tube" boiler
with a thermocouple, the power draw on the machine, and instruct
electric pumps for liquid fuel and the water from the condenser.

(carnot-cycle-eff
(my-tc2k 800) ;; 1073.15
(my-tc2k 70) ;; 343.15
) ;; 0.6802404137352653

The potential efficiency of the device is around 68%.

You would have fuel-flexibility - "diesel", heating oil, etc.

The drive would have to be electric (?), seeing as the turbine would
spin at 10's / 100's of thousands of revs-per-minute.

The thing would hopefully be nearly silent, vibration-free and small.
You'll be knowing - on a sailing yacht if you have to go over to
"auxiliary power"
(the wind is low or you want a heading in the "no go zone" in the
90degree included angle about the bow 45deg Port to 45deg Starboard)
the sound and rumble of a diesel engine in the confined small boat is
"sub-optimal".

In general steam turbine ships have smaller machinery, can be
lighter-built because there isn't the vibration of a "pounding" diesel
- but up until now have a fuel-consumption penalty compared to a
marine long-stroke diesel (which exceeds 50% efficiency)
Thinking eg. container-ships going around the world at 25knots.

I am taking it that with stainless steel boiler tube and no
consequence if it "lets go" - you put the "boiler" in a steel tube and
if it "lets go" the tiny amount of steam in a flash-boiler "shoots"
over the stern - probably at the water.
So worked on the idea of 800C at the boiler output.

To start the thing you'd crank a manual handle which blows air and
pumps water and fuel-oil in reasonble ratio until the steam-turbine
spins and generates electricity the auxiliaries can start drawing-on
under computer-control.

It is a nice thought that if you want to voyage when the wind isn't
blowing that voyage is as silent as sailing.

A "motor-boat" with such device is a nice thought, and an easier start
as a test rig.

Any comments?

This must be obvious.
Has been done already?

I must absolutely leave this alone - but I had to ask if this is
already known.

Rich Smith

---------------------------------
https://steamboatassociation.co.uk/

You could start with a low cost Tesla turbine from eBay, it uses friction
within a stack of simple disks instead of expensive bladed rotors. Sensing
temperature and pressure is cheap and easy, flow or more critically its
absence not so much.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_turbine

This is definitely a lathe and milling machine project, and you want a
developmental model that won't explode if there is a bug in your code,
writing a stable "servo loop" isn't trivial. I struggled to step a drum
plotter print head quickly without overshoot, ie open loop critical damping.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping
There will be a delay between commanding a change like opening the throttle
and seeing its effect, if you just wait for it the change may become greater
than intended.
Many modelers use compressed air in place of steam for safety and
convenience. A dangerous leak of steam at high temperature and pressure is
invisible.

US experimenting with jet engines began with Nathan Price's work on steam
engines for aircraft at the Doble Steam Motors company.
https://www.wingsofhistory.org/what-about-steam/
After creating the functional steam airplane engine he dropped the steam
stage and fed the supercharged combustion gas into a turbine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_J37

His struggle for high efficiency before suitable high temperature alloys had
been developed slowed his work enough that the USA decided to pursue
Whittle's less sophisticated but easier to produce design instead.

[Richard Smith]

Post by Jim Wilkins

...

You could start with a low cost Tesla turbine from eBay, it uses
friction within a stack of simple disks instead of expensive bladed
rotors. ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_turbine
...

Tesla turbine - thanks - couldn't visulise any way with turbine

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Jim Wilkins

...

You could start with a low cost Tesla turbine from eBay, it uses
friction within a stack of simple disks instead of expensive bladed
rotors. ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_turbine
...

Tesla turbine - thanks - couldn't visulise any way with turbine
-------------------------
You machine each blade with two hole saw cuts like this into the rim of the
disk: ((
with a smaller radius on the back one so the blade has a crescent moon
profile and sharp edges. Moving the spindle to the side of the disk axis
rotates the blades. The operation is similar to cutting a gear, tedious and
exacting but not that difficult, and it uses standard milling accessories.

The accessory that positions the disk may also be a dividing head or rotary
table. I used mine to cut a new steering sector gear for my old tractor and
to groove a shaft to nearly the full depth of a motorcycle drive sprocket's
splines so it could be pressed on, for my sawmill that runs the bandsaw
blade on ex- motorcycle wheels.

Machining can be a challenging exercise in problem solving. The complex
shapes on 1800's US military firearms were cut on very simple production
machinery set up by very clever toolmakers.
https://www.asme.org/wwwasmeorg/media/resourcefiles/aboutasme/history/landmarks/120-robbins-lawrence.pdf

Military contracts were the first combination of a guaranteed market with
advance funding for new production machinery. Civilian gunsmithing retained
the old methods.

The Windsor factory is a museum with some of the original Enfield machinery,
still looking very impressively well made after 100 years of service.

[Peter Fairbrother]

Post by Jim Wilkins
You machine each blade with two hole saw cuts like this into the rim of
the disk:  ((
with a smaller radius on the back one so the blade has a crescent moon
profile and sharp edges.

I tried that, but couldn't get it to work with a suitable geometry (for
an impulse turbine) - I had problems with the back edge of the holesaw
hitting the workpiece. If the saw was small diameter it would intersect
the workpiece on both edges, and if the diameter was large enough that
it didn't interfere the turbine blade was too straight.

Had visions of a flexible belt blade running over a curved surface, but
that didn't work either. Though I am thinking of reviving the idea with
a sanding belt for final polishing.

Nowadays I'd use a straight milling cutter on a CNC milling machine, or
do a lost-PLA casting of a 3D print.

But my turbines are small, usually less than 50mm diameter. For a yacht
you'd want something bigger.



But but ... does the electrical efficiency matter all that much for a
yacht? If you are using CHP (combined heat and power) the otherwise lost
heat can be counted as useful output, giving 95%+ overall efficiency.

Also, suppose you had 10% electrical efficiency from something burning
oil or a similar taxed fuel. You could claim back the transportation tax
on 90 % of your fuel, as you would be using most of the energy from it
for non-transportation purposes.

Or possibly 97.5%, as you might be using the fuel solely for cooking or
heating half the time, and using half the electricity on a microwave or
summat.

(on boats fuel used for transportation is taxed at a much higher rate
than fuel used for domestic heating or cooking. Or it used to be, it's
decades since I lived aboard)



Peter Fairbrother

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Jim Wilkins
You machine each blade with two hole saw cuts like this into the rim of
the disk: ((
with a smaller radius on the back one so the blade has a crescent moon
profile and sharp edges.

I tried that, but couldn't get it to work with a suitable geometry (for
an impulse turbine) - I had problems with the back edge of the holesaw
hitting the workpiece. If the saw was small diameter it would intersect
the workpiece on both edges, and if the diameter was large enough that
it didn't interfere the turbine blade was too straight.

-----------------------

I can visualize what you mean, interference limits the blade depth. The
blades could be cut deeper with a small end mill if the rotary index holding
the disk blank was in a swivel vise (or rotary table) manually turned only
far enough to make the cut. The setup might be easier if the disk blank was
fixed to a drilled index plate that took up less space, mounted on a
vertical surface of a block that centered (or offset) the blank over the
vise swivel axis.

I design things like this graphically by drawing the separate shapes in CAD
and moving them to touch, for example the front and back circles
intersecting at the blank edges, then recording the center coordinates.
Trigonometry can refine the precision without much risk of gross error.

I would rough out the gaps first, milling an arc with hand feed pressure
doesn't allow much depth of cut and NO climb milling.

[Richard Smith]

Post by Jim Wilkins

Post by Peter Fairbrother

Post by Jim Wilkins
You machine each blade with two hole saw cuts like this into the rim
of the disk: ((
with a smaller radius on the back one so the blade has a crescent
moon profile and sharp edges.

I tried that, but couldn't get it to work with a suitable geometry (for
an impulse turbine) - I had problems with the back edge of the holesaw
hitting the workpiece. If the saw was small diameter it would intersect
the workpiece on both edges, and if the diameter was large enough that
it didn't interfere the turbine blade was too straight.

I can visualize what you mean, interference limits the blade
depth. The blades could be cut deeper with a small end mill if the
rotary index holding the disk blank was in a swivel vise (or rotary
table) manually turned only far enough to make the cut. The setup
might be easier if the disk blank was fixed to a drilled index plate
that took up less space, mounted on a vertical surface of a block that
centered (or offset) the blank over the vise swivel axis.
I design things like this graphically by drawing the separate shapes
in CAD and moving them to touch, for example the front and back
circles intersecting at the blank edges, then recording the center
coordinates. Trigonometry can refine the precision without much risk
of gross error.
I would rough out the gaps first, milling an arc with hand feed
pressure doesn't allow much depth of cut and NO climb milling.

Hi Jim, Peter

This and the previous "machining and eccentric" (with mention of model
aeroplane "peg out of a disc" crankpins) - has really dug up something
from my youth - mid teenage. Now 60 years of age.

I was obsessed with getting a lathe (how met Tony of lathes.co.uk) - and
wanted to become a machinist.

Word was - no this is not a credible job.
etc.

Thing is - a structured mission is better than "kicking your heels"
ostensibly doing something you have no interest in.
ie. a "lowly" (sic.) mission might get you on a path, where being
defeated out of "wrong choices" and adrift without purpose, structure or
direction is going to put you six foot under.

I am still here - and this is the first time someone has spoken to my
15-year-old-ish self - and I now at 60 years of age see what I was
trying to do.

I would have been drawn in to a world of vast knowledge, been "hot on
the trail" taking-up mentoring, and had a life expanding open from that.

When everything came crashing down, I passed off as a welder and rebuilt
a life. So I still had to travel a similarish path.

I recently went and for the first time discussed with some family
friends now elderly about their son my contemporary who died by suicide
35 years ago. I am a living link to their son. I had to profess I
didn't know much; hadn't seen anything "dark" in the time I was nearby;
have some knowledge of such things yet still was without basis to
comment.

Well; I am here. And thanks for these interesting responses.

Best wishes,
Rich Smith

[Richard Smith]

For what it's worth - I was thinking of
* de Laval turbine
* Ljungstro..m turbine
With Ljungstrom turbine, wondered if blades could be made on tips of rod
pegs set into the face of the disk. The centrifugal force isn't in line
to sling the inserts out of their seats. ?
I wondered whether the revs would have been manageable.
Two contra-rotating discs would have been fine - two generators.
Presumably at those revs a couple of magnets embedded in each disk?

Idle speculation.

I got an "Arduino" embedded device working today.
Advantage me seeking jobs in processing - new mines opening up around
here (Cornwall).

[Peter Fairbrother]

Post by Richard Smith
For what it's worth - I was thinking of
* de Laval turbine

A partial admission turbine is probably a good way, to go. Partial
admission means that the incoming fluid only impinges on a few blades at
a time rather than over the whole wheel.

Post by Richard Smith
* Ljungstrom turbine
With Ljungstrom turbine, wondered if blades could be made on tips of rod
pegs set into the face of the disk. The centrifugal force isn't in line
to sling the inserts out of their seats. ?

I hadn't thought of that, it's more a bending force isn't it. And you
can put rings on the other end of the blades so they are supported at
both ends, with the centrifugal and pressure forces going sideways.

Though they would typically have a last ring of axial blades for best
efficiency.

And possibly a pre-ring or two of impulse blades if the expansion
pressure ratio is higher than about 10 (the two-spool Ljungstrom turbine
is necessarily a reaction turbine, though in some ways it behaves like
an impulse turbine).

Also good is that the blades are not twisted, makes them much easier to
make.

Post by Richard Smith
I wondered whether the revs would have been manageable.
Two contra-rotating discs would have been fine - two generators.

Do you have to have two turning spools? [quickly googles Ljungstrom
turbine, it's been a while]

Hmmm, looks like one shaft is okay, in fact there has been a lot of
work on that recently (which I haven't read...yet), see eg RAT turbines
for ORC.

I would stick to steam though, you don't need huge efficiency.

Peter Fairbrother

[Richard Smith]

Thanks for interesting responses.
This whole matter must remain a conjecture.
Appreciate you developing this and not leaving it as a "loose end",

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

I got an "Arduino" embedded device working today.
Advantage me seeking jobs in processing - new mines opening up around
here (Cornwall).

---------------------------------
Congratulations! The bare Arduino doesn't do anything interesting by itself,
so a welding voltage and current data recorder might be a good useful
project for you. Here's a DC current sensor:
https://www.ato.com/dc-current-sensor-400a-to-20000a

https://store.arduino.cc/collections/shields-carriers

A less demanding initial version could sample, record and perhaps display
the audio voltage to a loudspeaker. That would cover most of the user
interface, measuring and recording complexity without the risk. A
spreadsheet can convert a list of time-stamped voltage readings into a
graph, so you don't need to do everything to get started.

Theoretically you can accurately capture frequencies of up to 1/2 the
sampling rate. You just filter out the higher frequencies to avoid
confusion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_sampling_theorem

Usually I write the user interface first, as the definition of what to do.
It calls dummy routines that return canned responses which I then connect to
reality. Having a running program that processes known data can make errors
visible as they are introduced.

I never presented myself as a Programmer but the jobs came anyway when the
engineers found that I could. Coding plus hands-on skill is uncommon. I've
been plodding through a spreadsheet I wrote that figures my taxes. It has
several IF;Then;Else structures that gave me some trouble translating them
from the text instructions.

[Richard Smith]

I have a "Fluke" meter with clamp to measure Amps - AC and DC.
Not the point - you are pointing to a project.

I did think of a device to measure voltage - get it to "stab" in at the
torch/gun - and have it speak the voltage so you can run the arc and
weld while having the info.
I bet there are voice devices for saying numbers?

GnuPlot will graph text files of data - my perception there is no need
to keep the data in other than text format. A compression algorithm
like "bzip2" can get compress the files ot fractions of the former size
- so easy to keep data.

I've done sampling (?) before:
http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/welding/datalog/datalog_weldproc.html
Welding - MIG/GMAW "waveforms" revealed by datalogging
Noting average-Amps x average-Volts does not give average-Power with
systematic pulse waveforms.

Arduino - I was rather delighted about "getting" that one.
Have programmed in "C" before, so head start.
Quickly extended beyond tutorials, using
loops "for..."
conditionals "if..."
to get more interesting things happening.
eg. LED's flashing morse-code
from tutorial getting an LED to light.
Hopefully this will stand as a "proof of concept" and be the start of a
progression - hopefully with the adjective "rapid".

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

I have a "Fluke" meter with clamp to measure Amps - AC and DC.
Not the point - you are pointing to a project.

I did think of a device to measure voltage - get it to "stab" in at the
torch/gun - and have it speak the voltage so you can run the arc and
weld while having the info.
I bet there are voice devices for saying numbers?

GnuPlot will graph text files of data - my perception there is no need
to keep the data in other than text format. A compression algorithm
like "bzip2" can get compress the files ot fractions of the former size
- so easy to keep data.

I've done sampling (?) before:
http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/welding/datalog/datalog_weldproc.html
Welding - MIG/GMAW "waveforms" revealed by datalogging
Noting average-Amps x average-Volts does not give average-Power with
systematic pulse waveforms.

Arduino - I was rather delighted about "getting" that one.
Have programmed in "C" before, so head start.
Quickly extended beyond tutorials, using
loops "for..."
conditionals "if..."
to get more interesting things happening.
eg. LED's flashing morse-code
from tutorial getting an LED to light.
Hopefully this will stand as a "proof of concept" and be the start of a
progression - hopefully with the adjective "rapid".

----------------------------
Good, you understand the process and its value already. The other obvious
use is a robot that crashes into walls and furniture, which is funny with a
toy, less so with a heavy Segway bot. The perpetrator had to autograph the
damage which was left as a reminder.

I use a laptop and DMMs with RS232 interfaces to measure and record battery
charge and discharge. Since they use slow dual slope A/D converters their
measuring rate is 1 or 2 per second, which is fine for a steady load, but
too slow for the pulsed output of a solar controller. A digital storage
scope captures a short sample of the voltage and current pulses for analysis
though it won't integrate current into the battery charge level. For that
dedicated battery power monitors serve well enough, at least for the steady
discharge current. All do some, none do all.

The high price of commercial data loggers prompted me to consider building
my own, which would operate at a much higher sampling rate than the DMMs. A
Dataq starter kit sort of works but I prefer a higher resolution and
interactive control. I had designed and built a fast 16-bit data logger card
that plugs into a Macintosh for work, where they wouldn't allow IBM PCs
after being embarrassed by a hacker. They gave it back when done and
converting it to a printer port interface is on my to-do list. I have
experience building and programming high end industrial measurement systems.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_test_equipment

Most of the measurements are performed by voltage and current controlled
power supplies that report their outputs to the computer, as does this:
https://www.amazon.com/RD-Bluetooth-Step-down-communication-DPS5020-USB-BT/dp/B099ZJ1MZG

With battery discharge and welding the voltage drops from high current are a
concern. You don't want welding current taking a short cut through the
measurement leads. For the ATE we had to limit measurement and return lead
currents to a few milliAmps.

That experience served me well when Mitre took up digital radio, which is
much like a 2 channel digital oscilloscope. Unlike the radio engineers and
techs I knew how to use high speed A/D converters and connect them to a
TMS320C30 digital signal processor, I had designed an IC that let both use
the same memory simultaneously. Digital radio was the enabler for cell
phones.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

I bet there are voice devices for saying numbers?

[A simpler VCO tone generator might be enough, it will indicate changes
though perhaps not the absolute value, and responds faster. How well do you
remember music? I can catch my sister playing one wrong note in a Beethoven
symphony, or correct and incorrect start-up sequences in computers
connecting via modems over phone lines.]

GnuPlot will graph text files of data - my perception there is no need
to keep the data in other than text format. A compression algorithm
like "bzip2" can get compress the files ot fractions of the former size
- so easy to keep data.

[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
The CAD programs I used saved everything as text, such as the coordinates of
vector lines and the variable settings. I found that very useful for
troubleshooting and saved initialization and user settings for the programs
I wrote as Variable=Value. Flash and hard drive space is really cheap
relative to a simple program's needs.

File handling is much easier on a PC because the operating system manages
details. I've done it from scratch on the home computer I designed and had
to maintain the file directory externally on paper. Sequential files are
easy to process. I wrote a text editor that allowed random insertion or
deletion in memory but stored sequentially onto tape.

[Peter Fairbrother]

Post by Jim Wilkins
I can visualize what you mean, interference limits the blade depth. The
blades could be cut deeper with a small end mill if the rotary index
holding the disk blank was in a swivel vise (or rotary table) manually
turned only far enough to make the cut. The setup might be easier if the
disk blank was fixed to a drilled index plate that took up less space,
mounted on a vertical surface of a block that centered (or offset) the
blank over the vise swivel axis.

Nowadays I only cut ceramic turbine wheels on a CNC mill [*] - it has
five-and-a-half axes, but I only use three (plus a rotary table) for
turbine wheels, that's good enough, so the result is similar to your setup.

For ceramics, don't buy the "machinable" ceramics, they are horribly
expensive and their properties are lesser. I get most of my alumina from
a no-name chinese source, can be brittle but it is usually ok if yuo
keep that in mind. Also Morgan ceramics for high tech and high
reliability stuff (Si3N4, ZrO2).

Diamond tooling is not expensive if you a) buy the tools in reasonable
quantities and b) keep the water flowing, or even just there. Been
meaning to make my own diamond tooling, but I don't know how and haven't
really tried - anyone?

Post by Jim Wilkins
I would rough out the gaps first, milling an arc with hand feed pressure
doesn't allow much depth of cut and NO climb milling.

NO climb milling is always good :) even in ballscew equipped CNC mills.
Somewhat less important when you are using abrasive rather than cutting
tools, but still.

Keeping diamond and abrasive ceramic containing slurry out of ballscrews
is also good, damhikt.



Peter Fairbrother

[*] technically it's a CNC-converted BCA jig borer, but it has hefty
upgraded ballscrews, improved lateral stiffness and is pretty much only
used on ceramics with abrasive diamond tooling; though I can fit an ER20
collet shaft and a slower motor. I also have a manual BCA.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Peter Fairbrother" wrote in message news:usknjc$329n7$***@dont-email.me...

[*] technically it's a CNC-converted BCA jig borer, but it has hefty
upgraded ballscrews, improved lateral stiffness and is pretty much only
used on ceramics with abrasive diamond tooling; though I can fit an ER20
collet shaft and a slower motor. I also have a manual BCA.

------------------------------

Nice!
I have two Henry Hauser vertical mills of similar vintage, unfortunately
lever feed for production instead of leadscrew. The seller told me they made
WW1 artillery fuses. Did you do the CNC conversion?

[Peter Fairbrother]

Post by Peter Fairbrother
[*] technically it's a CNC-converted BCA jig borer, but it has hefty
upgraded ballscrews, improved lateral stiffness and is pretty much only
used on ceramics with abrasive diamond tooling; though I can fit an ER20
collet shaft and a slower motor. I also have a manual BCA.
------------------------------
Nice!
I have two Henry Hauser vertical mills of similar vintage

Oooh ... :)

, unfortunately

Post by Peter Fairbrother
lever feed for production instead of leadscrew. The seller told me they
made WW1 artillery fuses.

I actually have six BCA's, though only two are in working use. I was
picking them up for about £200 each a few years ago and thought to
recondition and/or cnc-convert them, but that plan went agley and they
are now sitting in my nice dry airing cupboard along with some ML10s and
other stuff I have no room to use. Must get a bigger workshop!

The BCA is based on and almost identical to a Boley/Leinen design from
the 1930s (which was based on an earlier 1880's design). I only have one
WW2 example, badged Excel (apparently they rebadged someone else's
work), but I believe it was used to make jigs for anti-aircraft shell
fuzes. The rest, like the BCA name, are post-war.

A story I heard, don't know whether it is true or not, is that just
before WW2 the British Government ordered Excel to make lots of BCAs.
Excel (or whoever) then continued to pay design royalties to
Boley/Leinen right through 1940. Ouch! Postwar, the design rights were
considered to be spoils of war.

But Tenga still make them - basically a 1880 design - at £10,500 each
last time I checked.

That old cast iron is still going strong - and 50 years of settling
can't hurt :)

Post by Peter Fairbrother
Did you do the CNC conversion?

Yes.


Peter Fairbrother

[Jim Wilkins]

"Peter Fairbrother" wrote in message news:usl1ga$34frv$***@dont-email.me...

A story I heard, don't know whether it is true or not, is that just
before WW2 the British Government ordered Excel to make lots of BCAs.
Excel (or whoever) then continued to pay design royalties to
Boley/Leinen right through 1940. Ouch! Postwar, the design rights were
considered to be spoils of war.

Peter Fairbrother

------------------------
The US paid the German manufacturer DWM $412,520 in 1928 to settle a patent
dispute over features of the Springfield rifle taken from the 1893 Mauser.
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=15846

I've read but can't find where that Britain and Germany both bought 20mm
aircraft cannon from Oerlikon, all with barrels made from German steel.

[David Billington]

Post by Peter Fairbrother
A story I heard, don't know whether it is true or not, is that just
before WW2 the British Government ordered Excel to make lots of BCAs.
Excel (or whoever) then continued to pay design royalties to
Boley/Leinen right through 1940. Ouch! Postwar, the design rights were
considered  to be spoils of war.
Peter Fairbrother
------------------------
The US paid the German manufacturer DWM $412,520 in 1928 to settle a
patent dispute over features of the Springfield rifle taken from the
1893 Mauser.
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=15846
I've read but can't find where that Britain and Germany both bought
20mm aircraft cannon from Oerlikon, all with barrels made from German
steel.

I was watching a program the other day about the restoration of a
Spitfire in the Shuttleworth collection IIRC and they mentioned it being
fitted with a 20mm cannon to match what the Germans used and they
mentioned it as Hispano Suiza, maybe this one
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano-Suiza_HS.404 .

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Peter Fairbrother
A story I heard, don't know whether it is true or not, is that just
before WW2 the British Government ordered Excel to make lots of BCAs.
Excel (or whoever) then continued to pay design royalties to
Boley/Leinen right through 1940. Ouch! Postwar, the design rights were
considered to be spoils of war.
Peter Fairbrother
------------------------
The US paid the German manufacturer DWM $412,520 in 1928 to settle a
patent dispute over features of the Springfield rifle taken from the 1893
Mauser.
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=15846
I've read but can't find where that Britain and Germany both bought 20mm
aircraft cannon from Oerlikon, all with barrels made from German steel.

I was watching a program the other day about the restoration of a
Spitfire in the Shuttleworth collection IIRC and they mentioned it being
fitted with a 20mm cannon to match what the Germans used and they
mentioned it as Hispano Suiza, maybe this one
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano-Suiza_HS.404 .
-----------------------------------

That's it, in several models and names from various manufacturers. German
sources call the WW2 models "Becker". I like the exotic name "Oerlikon",
along with other unusual Swiss-German words such as Eidgenossenschaft. I
spent a while researching Schwartzenegger, which can be either Swiss or
Austrian. English can be interesting to research too, like the pronunciation
of Cholmondeley. Although it might be my ancestry I haven't dipped a toe
into Cymraeg yet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widdershins

[Peter Fairbrother]

Post by Richard Smith
Hello all
I must leave this alone - but here's a thought which jumped to me.
Started on path of learning "embedded electronic devices".
Typically boards about 50mm square with inputs, outputs and a
microprocessor - as would be used to control eg. a washing-machine.
The thought must occur to an "on the spectrum" mind - for a boat -
eg. auxiliary power for a sailing yacht...

A microprocessor is probably overkill for a boat - you would run it
mostly at a set speed, when you would want to know hot temperature and
pressure, and engine speed, but that's about all.

If you are driving a generator then you won't be changing engine speed
much either.

Though nowadays you might as well chuck a microprocessor in and see -
that way lies better instrumentation, process control and outputs like
efficiency, noise, engine wear and so on.

For a car now, a microprocessor gets more interesting and dynamic,
especially in direct drive. I designed a flash steam car about 30 years
ago, but it never got built. Hmmm...

Post by Richard Smith
because you have the sea as a "cold-well temperature" to condense the

If it's steam, basically anything which will condense the steam is
enough. Though a copious cold end always helps, at least a little.

Post by Richard Smith
an embedded electronic control device would make possible a
"flash-steam" turbine power unit.
It could sense temperature at the output of the "helix of tube" boiler
with a thermocouple, the power draw on the machine, and instruct
electric pumps for liquid fuel and the water from the condenser.
(carnot-cycle-eff
(my-tc2k 800) ;; 1073.15
(my-tc2k 70) ;; 343.15
) ;; 0.6802404137352653
The potential efficiency of the device is around 68%.

No, first a steam engine is not a Carnot cycle engine, it is a
(hopefully condensing) Rankine cycle. Second, small - and by small I
mean anything smaller than huge - turbines are inherently less efficient
than reciprocating engines. You'll be lucky to get 15% even with really
good design.

You might want to look at Sterling engines.

Post by Richard Smith
I must absolutely leave this alone - but I had to ask if this is
already known.

Steam turbine ships? see Turbinia.

Peter Fairbrother

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Richard Smith
I must absolutely leave this alone - but I had to ask if this is
already known.

Steam turbine ships? see Turbinia.

Peter Fairbrother
-------------------------------------
In the early 60's Popular Mechanics magazine published hobbyist plans for a
steam turbine powered model of the first commercial nuclear ship, NS
Savannah. The turbine disk was to be machined on a milling machine with a
rotary indexer using a more precise version of hole saws to cut the blade
curves.

This photo from lathes.co.uk shows a milling machine like mine with the work
mounted on a rotary indexer to precisely space the holes:
Loading Image...

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Richard Smith
Started on path of learning "embedded electronic devices".
Typically boards about 50mm square with inputs, outputs and a
microprocessor - as would be used to control eg. a washing-machine.
The thought must occur to an "on the spectrum" mind - for a boat -
eg. auxiliary power for a sailing yacht...

No, first a steam engine is not a Carnot cycle engine, it is a
(hopefully condensing) Rankine cycle. Second, small - and by small I
mean anything smaller than huge - turbines are inherently less efficient
than reciprocating engines. You'll be lucky to get 15% even with really
good design.

You might want to look at Sterling engines.
Peter Fairbrother

-----------------------------
For aircraft the break-even point between recips and jets is considered to
be around 300HP, though there are smaller jet engines down to model size.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/air-space-magazine/the-little-engine-that-couldnt-6865253/
At 375 MPH one HP equals one pound of thrust.

Unless you build at the low end of buy new and bolt together industrial size
there will be lots of custom machining involved. Using surplus equipment may
also require machining to make the parts connect together. I found that
cheap and useful things were often available because they had unusual
mounting or shaft coupling etc.

On the sawmill I paid as much for a new extension shaft, jaw couplers,
supporting bearings and a pulley as for the new 6.5 HP gas (petrol) engine.
The point was to have all the exposed moving parts on the tooth side and the
engine and its controls on the guarded back side in easy reach.

[Richard Smith]

Thanks for the wise words about turbines.
I have heard about low efficiency in small sizes.
That reciptocating engines can be used in like solar power plants where
the solar energy is passed on as steam in the design.
Preserved but still in viable service (?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Badger
uses "Unaflow" engines.
High boiler pressure for reciprocating engine at 470psi
(/ 470 14.7) ;; 31.97278911564626
about 32Bar.

Thanks everyone.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

Thanks for the wise words about turbines.
I have heard about low efficiency in small sizes.
That reciptocating engines can be used in like solar power plants where
the solar energy is passed on as steam in the design.
Preserved but still in viable service (?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Badger
uses "Unaflow" engines.
High boiler pressure for reciprocating engine at 470psi
(/ 470 14.7) ;; 31.97278911564626
about 32Bar.

Thanks everyone.
-------------------------------
https://forums.sailboatowners.com/threads/switched-to-electric.1249932376/

During WW2 we had two coal fired sidewheeler aircraft carriers on the Great
Lakes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Sable

[Leon Fisk]

On Fri, 08 Mar 2024 07:38:41 +0000
Richard Smith <***@void.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Richard Smith
Preserved but still in viable service (?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Badger
uses "Unaflow" engines.
High boiler pressure for reciprocating engine at 470psi
(/ 470 14.7) ;; 31.97278911564626
about 32Bar.

Sets sail for the season soon🙂

===
LUDINGTON, MI – The S.S. Badger car ferry marked the 71st anniversary
of its maiden voyage across Lake Michigan on Thursday, March 21,
officials said...
===

https://www.mlive.com/news/2024/03/ss-badger-car-ferry-marks-71st-anniversary-of-maiden-voyage-across-lake-michigan.html

There's a link in the article to another that has quite a few historic
photos and a bit more info...

[Jim Wilkins]

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:utkim4$32jtl$***@dont-email.me...

LUDINGTON, MI – The S.S. Badger car ferry marked the 71st anniversary
of its maiden voyage across Lake Michigan on Thursday, March 21,
officials said...

-----------------------------------

That's quite a service record. Ocean liners on the North Atlantic run wore
out in 20-30 years.

[Peter Fairbrother]

Post by Leon Fisk
LUDINGTON, MI – The S.S. Badger car ferry marked the 71st anniversary
of its maiden voyage across Lake Michigan on Thursday, March 21,
officials said...
-----------------------------------
That's quite a service record. Ocean liners on the North Atlantic run
wore out in 20-30 years.

Waverley Excursions – The world's last Seagoing paddle steamer

<https://waverleyexcursions.co.uk/>(and yes, the Scottish scenery is
as beautiful as it looks)

I ran away on her when I was about 7. The engineer allowed me to sit on
the end of the crankshaft and the parallel motion bearings of the
largest cylinders of her triple bank triple expansion steam engines when
moving (slowly).

Then he bought me a whisky in the bar and sent me home.



Peter Fairbrother

[Richard Smith]

Love this story.
Best wishes

[Richard Smith]

Post by Leon Fisk
LUDINGTON, MI – The S.S. Badger car ferry marked the 71st anniversary
of its maiden voyage across Lake Michigan on Thursday, March 21,
officials said...
-----------------------------------
That's quite a service record. Ocean liners on the North Atlantic run
wore out in 20-30 years.

25 years service life before scrapping for ocean-going ships: about
equally dependent on at least these two dominating things

* seawater corrosion
Seawater happens to be for steel the "pessimum" composition - if you add
more salt it becomes less corrosive (?). Corrosion is ferocious.

* fatigue
The ship going over ocean waves goes alternatively between "convex" and
"concave" bending - wave peak in middle of ship; ship on waves at bow
and stern.

Both of these are attacking all over the ship, likely in places you
cannot easily see.
Then yes machinery is coming up to needing refurb. - which could be done
- but isn't worth it when faced with the big two of corrosion + fatigue.

There are freighters on the Great Lakes at around 100 years old.
Being on fresh water (vastly less corrosive) and without the coean waves
(no fatigue) this can be so.

Also - apparently - the steam-turbine ships as very quiet and smooth -
if as family of someone to do with the Company you get invited to be
passengers on a voyage you go on a steam-turbine ship.

The bulkers used to be coming in and out of Cleveland when I was working
there.
Manouvring out in the Cuyahoga river, there was some heat-haze above the
funnel (stack). Was hilarious sight on Friday nights when everyone
partying by the riverside and pleasure boats around on the river while
another 20,000 tonnes of cargo went on the move.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:***@void.com...

Also - apparently - the steam-turbine ships as very quiet and smooth -
if as family of someone to do with the Company you get invited to be
passengers on a voyage you go on a steam-turbine ship.

-----------------------------

They are when properly balanced. Mauritania's weren't and when on a speed
record run the stern cabins were uninhabitable.

Olympic's turbine was significantly worn in a decade.
https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/an-olympic-class-propulsion-system.html

Notice that the turbine produced more power than one recip although its
steam entry pressure was below atmospheric, 9 PSIA / 188F, the condenser
reduced it to 1 PSIA / 102F. The two compound engines reduced daily coal
consumption to about 60% of the smaller, faster all-turbine Mauretania and
Lusitania, which were intended to and did capture and own the speed record,
while Olympic, Titanic and Britannic were optimized for economy at 22
instead of 26 knots.

Titanic wasn't quite at full steam pressure or speed and couldn't possibly
break the speed record. The captain had diverted south of the ice reports
and was following the standard practice of relying on lookouts plus the
bridge watch (which did have binoculars) to see something large enough to
damage the ship, which could turn almost as sharply at full as reduced
speed, but a temperature inversion mirage due to the ice field intruding
into the warm Gulf Stream -may- have hidden the berg until too late, and
also caused their unusually inaccurate SOS report longitude. A mirage that
raised the observed horizon and hid or distorted ships and the iceberg on it
could explain many of the lingering questions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fata_Morgana_(mirage)

https://www.titanicology.com/Titanica/Mistakes.pdf
Compare the size of the errors in longitude to latitude. The sinking
location is that of the tight cluster of coal and boilers released at hull
breakup. Carpathia's claim of great speed was based on assuming the
lifeboats were at the incorrect position an hour further west. Mauretania
burned 1000 tons per day on an early speed run, before improvements.

Intense interest in Titanic, especially after discovery revealed many wrong
assumptions, has made much more detailed information on ship design,
construction and operation of the time available than for other vessels with
less dramatic and unexplained fates. Eyewitness accounts vary substantially
for an event where unlike a crime most had nothing to hide.

[Jim Wilkins]

Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:...

Intense interest in Titanic, especially after discovery revealed many wrong
assumptions, has made much more detailed information on ship design,
construction and operation of the time available than for other vessels with
less dramatic and unexplained fates. Eyewitness accounts vary substantially
for an event where unlike a crime most had nothing to hide.
-------------------------

This is an example of both the thorough degree of modern analysis and
inconsistent witness testimony:
https://www.titanicology.com/Titanica/Two-Points-in-Thirty-Seven-Seconds.pdf

6th officer Moody's job was to see and report that helmsman (Quartermaster)
Hitchens did as ordered, as Hitchens was in a shuttered booth that allowed
him to have lighted instruments without disturbing the bridge crews' night
vision. Murdoch the watch officer may have seen the iceberg before the
crow's nest lookouts (Fleet) since it would have extended above the horizon
for him but not them. Much later another officer claimed that Hitchens had
turned the wheel the wrong way at first. It's all a challenging puzzle.

The aft-most observed hull leak was slightly aft of the bulkhead halfway
between the first and second funnels, though water rose a little faster than
the pumps could manage in the next compartment aft.

Putting engines astern would include bypassing the turbine whose propeller
washed over the rudder and boosted its effect. No engine room officers
survived to testify, they struggled until the sudden breakup to keep the
lights on.

[Jim Wilkins]

"which could turn almost as sharply at full as reduced speed,"

The reference:
https://timmaltin.com/2019/03/18/titanic-more-slowly/

[Jim Wilkins]

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:...

Intense interest in Titanic, especially after discovery revealed many wrong
assumptions, has made much more detailed information on ship design,
construction and operation of the time available than for other vessels with
less dramatic and unexplained fates. Eyewitness accounts vary substantially
for an event where unlike a crime most had nothing to hide.
-------------------------

This is an example of both the thorough degree of modern analysis and
inconsistent witness testimony:
https://www.titanicology.com/Titanica/Two-Points-in-Thirty-Seven-Seconds.pdf

6th officer Moody's job was to see and report that helmsman (Quartermaster)
Hitchens did as ordered, as Hitchens was in an enclosed booth that allowed
him to have lighted instruments without disturbing the bridge watch
officers' night vision. Murdoch was the watch officer and may have seen the
iceberg before the lookouts since it would have extended above the horizon
for him but not them. Much later another officer claimed that Hitchens had
turned the wheel the wrong way at first. It's all a challenging puzzle.

The aft-most observed hull leak was slightly aft of the bulkhead halfway
between the first and second funnels, though water rose a little faster than
the pumps could manage in the next compartment aft.